An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[CupDeNoodles]

I am truly dumbfounded at seeing this thread still going. I'm sure it's been said and I'll say it again, harsher penalties does not equate to a more challenging and rewarding game, if anything it's quite the opposite. It breeds cookie cutter setups so as to avoid dying. It negates the possibility of people thinking outside the box and to try new ways of doing things.

We've seen it happen in FFXI, people who wouldn't even try a new way for fear of losing experience points. Why would anyone want this to happen again?

I said it in my earlier post and I'll say it again, right now weakness serves it's purpose, that is to prevent people from immediately attacking right after death. Anyone wanting anything beyond weakness is just a glutton for punishment and should pursue other venues to fulfill their needs for punishment. May I suggest BDSM?

[Visch]

We've seen it happen in FFXI, people who wouldn't even try a new way for fear of losing experience points. Why would anyone want this to happen again?

Look, I'm sorry you couldn't get into a good LS with you 75PUP/37DNC but some people want a feeling of actual accomplishment when they play the game. In my experience, anyone who even used the term "cookie cutter" was just looking for an excuse why their gear wasn't as good as other people. Something needs to be done to the death system to create any kind of feeling of urgency when playing at all. And it's pretty much confirmed it's going to happen so I don't understand why you're arguing about it.

Being able to solo to max level and kill these "NMs" (I wouldn't even compare them to ones in XI) is seriously a joke. I'm all for a "faster paced game" than XI but honestly XIV as it stands now is just way too easy in general. This is just one little part to making the game better.

[PandaTaru]

Look, I'm sorry you couldn't get into a good LS with you 75PUP/37DNC but some people want a feeling of actual accomplishment when they play the game. In my experience, anyone who even used the term "cookie cutter" was just looking for an excuse why their gear wasn't as good as other people. Something needs to be done to the death system to create any kind of feeling of urgency when playing at all. And it's pretty much confirmed it's going to happen so I don't understand why you're arguing about it.

Being able to solo to max level and kill these "NMs" (I wouldn't even compare them to ones in XI) is seriously a joke. I'm all for a "faster paced game" than XI but honestly XIV as it stands now is just way too easy in general. This is just one little part to making the game better.

How can you feel accomplished for losing more time when you lost X amount of SP/EXP trying to kill this or that (h)NM?

Adding a Time Sink doesn't add anything to the "feeling of urgency". It just make you waste more time to get back a lost SP/EXP buffer.

I do agree the current NM (are they really?) aren't this challenging at all; however, instead of asking to add stupid time sinks, why not start asking for more challenging mobs? With a rage timer these fights would add the feeling of urgency you miss.

[CupDeNoodles]

Look, I'm sorry you couldn't get into a good LS with you 75PUP/37DNC but some people want a feeling of actual accomplishment when they play the game. In my experience, anyone who even used the term "cookie cutter" was just looking for an excuse why their gear wasn't as good as other people. Something needs to be done to the death system to create any kind of feeling of urgency when playing at all. And it's pretty much confirmed it's going to happen so I don't understand why you're arguing about it.

Being able to solo to max level and kill these "NMs" (I wouldn't even compare them to ones in XI) is seriously a joke. I'm all for a "faster paced game" than XI but honestly XIV as it stands now is just way too easy in general. This is just one little part to making the game better.

Way to assume things. First off I did level multiple jobs including the popular ones in FFXI because I enjoyed trying different aspects of the game which was the point I was trying to make, "trying new things". The way it's set up now people are experimenting, which is a good thing. I've no idea why you brought up gear because I was talking about jobs.

As for creating a "feeling of urgency" it can be done other ways. Like using skills at the right time to weaken the monsters or any other form of strategy that requires you to be on top of your game. Why does someone need a death penalty to get a sense of urgency?

Again the only thing it leads to is a time sink and cookie cutter ways of doing things. No one will want to try new things for fear of losing something.

Also what is with people wanting the penalty to gear upon death? This is another thing I don't get. Most of the community wanted cuts to gear damage which Square listened to. Now people are asking for gear to get damaged upon death? wut?

[Visch]

How can you feel accomplished for losing more time when you lost X amount of SP/EXP trying to kill this or that (h)NM?

Adding a Time Sink doesn't add anything to the "feeling of urgency". It just make you waste more time to get back a lost SP/EXP buffer.

I do agree the current NM (are they really?) aren't this challenging at all; however, instead of asking to add stupid time sinks, why not start asking for more challenging mobs? With a rage timer these fights would add the feeling of urgency you miss.

They already have a rage timer...? Lol.

But, Yeah I agree that losing sp would be pretty much a time sink but in XI it made people have to exp on a job they already max out and served as a testing ground for many things. Now it's like you get a 50 job and you're done with it (although I'm sure later on there will be some kind of merit system).

If you look at the dev posts it seemed like it will just be gear damage you will have to worry about, not sp loss. I mean, it even says that it's to stop people from zombie attacking things. Because right now, say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back, no worries at all. In XI if you died there was no way you're gunna homepoint unless you have no other option.

Put bluntly, yeah XI's system wasn't perfect, but you never really notice how changing one thing effects the rest of the game.

Way to assume things. First off I did level multiple jobs including the popular ones in FFXI because I enjoyed trying different aspects of the game which was the point I was trying to make, "trying new things". The way it's set up now people are experimenting, which is a good thing. I've no idea why you brought up gear because I was talking about jobs.

As for creating a "feeling of urgency" it can be done other ways. Like using skills at the right time to weaken the monsters or any other form of strategy that requires you to be on top of your game. Why does someone need a death penalty to get a sense of urgency?

Again the only thing it leads to is a time sink and cookie cutter ways of doing things. No one will want to try new things for fear of losing something.

Because when you die now it doesn't mean anything. You can run right back and it's fine because your freaking homepoint is always 20 feet away from you. It's seriously a joke.

How does having to use any skill tactically create any seriousness of the situation when if you mess up you can just have a redo 3 minutes later?

Also, having exp loss in XI never stopped anyone from trying new things. I don't know where you're getting that from. It just made you see a lot quick that what you were doing isn't going to work lol. If you're going to do something that gets you killed why would it be good in the first place? Obviously if you're dying than you're doing something wrong here.

[Tiraelina]

I mean, it even says that it's to stop people from zombie attacking things. Because right now, say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back, no worries at all.

Hate me all you want for using WoW as an example but world bosses had mechanics built in that didn't let you do that, it has nothing to do with the general death penalty system.

Any player slain by Azuregos gets the "Mark of Frost". Azuregos periodically sends out an AOE pulse that freezes anyone with this mark into an ice cube. The mark cannot be removed in most cases; players with this are essentally out of the fight for 15 minutes. This debuff was introduced to prevent players from Corpse Running during the encounter.

Don't penalise everyone because there was nothing stopping corpse zerging NM's.

Also, having exp loss in XI never stopped anyone from trying new things. I don't know where you're getting that from. It just made you see a lot quick that what you were doing isn't going to work lol. If you're going to do something that gets you killed why would it be good in the first place? Obviously if you're dying than you're doing something wrong here.

How many people do you see trying something they have a good chance at failing but could still win if they know they are going get a harsh penalty for even trying without it being a sure kill? Have you ever tried deviating from farm status and pushing the limits of what you can do?

[PandaTaru]

They already have a rage timer...? Lol.

But, Yeah I agree that losing sp would be pretty much a time sink but in XI it made people have to exp on a job they already max out and served as a testing ground for many things. Now it's like you get a 50 job and you're done with it (although I'm sure later on there will be some kind of merit system).

If you look at the dev posts it seemed like it will just be gear damage you will have to worry about, not sp loss. I mean, it even says that it's to stop people from zombie attacking things. Because right now, say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back, no worries at all. In XI if you died there was no way you're gunna homepoint unless you have no other option.

Put bluntly, yeah XI's system wasn't perfect, but you never really notice how changing one thing effects the rest of the game.

I meant the rage timer added to a challenging fight would give the "sense" you're looking for.


I just loved (and even loled loudly irl) at your argument about ranking up over and over the same job just for the purpose of getting a SP/EXP buffer. That time you lost getting the buffer you lost "experimenting" is time you lost ranking up another job to be more efficient and versatile in the HNM ls your in, or time you lost enjoying more other aspects of the game. Or even more time lost to experiment more stuff--
Sorry, take no offense I'm just speaking my mind right here, this argument is a complete fail. Nobody I knew in XI enjoyed getting buffer back. Even the most hardcore, really.

Merit is another thing and a good one as you can rank up your favorite job to "pimp it up"/make it stronger.

[...]
say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back
[...]

The only reason people don't mind repsawning/returning, rather than are happy to die, is because of there is no severe penalty like there was in XI. And, that, would be time saved for a healer to focus on the main party if NM fights were to be more challenging. A lot can happen while you're casting a simple raise in a hard fight. Dodore is a 3~4 people fight without even using zombie attack method.



One of the things that come to my mind when I read what some people write when they ask for SP/EXP penalty upon death is nothing more than e-peen to later brag "look at these noobs, I don't care if I die and lose SP/EXP but they do. hahahhahaha"
(that's not for you Visch, just speaking in general of a feeling I got reading posts in this thread.)

[Akumu]

Also, having exp loss in XI never stopped anyone from trying new things. I don't know where you're getting that from. It just made you see a lot quick that what you were doing isn't going to work lol. If you're going to do something that gets you killed why would it be good in the first place? Obviously if you're dying than you're doing something wrong here.

What server(s) did you play on? You must have had the best server(s) in XI. I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

[Abriael]

I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

True. Also harsh death penalties discourage socializationand grouping with people you don't know. It's doubtlss that people die a LOT because of action/lack of action by other people from which they have no fault. Without a harsh death penalty nothing stands in the way of grouping with someone i never met before. On the other hand with a harsh death penalty people would be much more wary before giving others a chance.

[Vesper]

True. Also harsh death penalties discourage socializationand grouping with people you don't know. It's doubtlss that people die a LOT because of action/lack of action by other people from which they have no fault. Without a harsh death penalty nothing stands in the way of grouping with someone i never met before. On the other hand with a harsh death penalty people would be much more wary before giving others a chance.

I completely agree with this. After many a bad group in FF11 I got sick of grouping with people I did not know. In FFXIV I group with tons of people and am willing to test out new people I have never played with because if I die I dust myself off and try again. I am having a blast overall. But if SP/XP loss is implemented I doubt I will be doing much with Pick up groups anymore

The game does not need SP/XP loss. Yoshi's proposed system is better than what we have but not harsh enough to discourage grouping with new people.

I would go for something more along the lines of...

Impaired: A player becomes impaired when dying/being knocked out once. An impaired player receives a temporary penalty to statistics and cool-down timer of skills, this penalty persists for 3 minutes. (As is works now)
Weakened: A player becomes weakened when dying/being knocked while under the effects of Impairment. An impaired player receives a temporary penalty to statistics and cool-down timer of skills, this penalty is double the penalty a player receives while Impaired, this penalty lasts 4 minutes.
Crippled: A player becomes crippled when dying/being knocked while under the effects of Weakened. A crippled player receives a temporary penalty that makes it impossible to attack as well as use battle based spells or skills, this penalty lasts 5 minutes

Note the timers do not stack, they just get 1 minute longer each death in succession.