Bring summoner back please

[ThorneDynasty]

They got the job fantasy 100% right. You are an actual summoner who rotates between different creatures, not just a Ruin mage + Poison with the occasional Demi.

The problem is just that apparently they spent all the budget on looks and the actual gameplay is really bland. Hopefully Dawntrail addresses that.

Again, explain what about the current summoner fulfills the the "job fantasy" compared to the old without using the word "animations"? Because those animations could have been part of the old gameplay with trivial changes.

EDIT: Or if not the old summoner, as people will immediately turn it into that slapfight, literally any imaginary iteration of Summoner with more indepth gameplay. Or at least gameplay that can be honestly called a "caster". Right now literally the only thing about SMN that is caster is its main stat and the skin. Actually look at the substance and NIN and SAM are better examples of a caster job than SMN is. Even RPR is contending.

[Anvaire]

The old Summoner wasn't a summoner either. If you have a pet that moves about and just auto attacks or the current system fundamentally they are materially the same thing. Hollow. Lore wise our summons are only a glorified simulacrum in place of a carbuncle anyway.

I think going back to the old summoner is not the right thing to do. Its just going round in this never ending circle between dot focused or Pet focused. Neither is ever going to please everyone. Ultimately they need to leave it as it is and bring another dot focused class to fill the gap left by the original change. If you just reverse it, well just have another cycle of pet focussed wanting the current version of summoner back.

On paper the current design is a pretty good idea, the problem is that the rotation around it is not impactful, there is nothing to build to earn the demi summons, there is nothing to track and the kit revolves around too many instant casts. What it sorely needs is diversification and something to build towards the big attacks.

That said - even if we brought something like aethertrail back, unless its implemented properly it wont actually change anything. The job will still be shallow; therein lies the problem, its not that either designs were bad, its that they were flawed and the implementation of them left a lot to be desired and that includes the old era summoner.

[Nizzi]

Why do people bring up "poison" or the DoTs at all when talking about ShB SMN or even SB SMN? Bio and Miasma were insanely vestigal on Summoner, SMN didn't actually manage its DoTs at all since like Heavensward lmao
I wouldn't consider 2 30s DoTs that you refresh with Tridisaster and then hardcast once every 2 minutes a "poison mage" anymore than I would consider BRD a DoT job when you apply your 2 DoTs and then refresh with Iron Jaws, only hitting them again on a reopener
Even ShB SCH used more GCDs on managing its one singular poison DoT than ShB SMN did with its 2, and so on a per GCD basis that makes ShB/EW SCH way more of a poison themed job or a DoT job than ShB SMN was because its 4 GCDs every 2 minutes versus 2 for SMN lol

I'm not even trying to be rude its just so weird to me that people still bring up the "poison" when referring to pre-EW SMN at all as if that was some major theme of Summoner in the past 5-7 years

[rawker]

Again with the I don't like DoTs or pets so you should too argument. If they intended it to be as such, then they should have done it since 2.0. But the problem was that they started and somehow put up to it for several expansions as a pet job. So please, let the old SMN/SCH players get their pet management back and instead go ask for a job that suits your fantasy of a walking flash grenade.

[VictorSpoils]

The fact is, it's one of the most played class, if not the most played, so I don't think they'll change anything. Dont get me wrong, I liked the ShB version, but still but honestly, the class is more popular now. You might not like it, but I doubt they'll change anything. The vast majority of player don't care about the classes being easy, it's mainly a raider problem, and from what I gathered, raid completion varies between 5 and 25% depending on DC, servers, and difficulty.

There are so many RPRs going around, probably as many as every other melee combined, and even it is a big step up from SMN. Surely the latter could still be made more interesting without losing its popularity.

[ZiraZ]

There are so many RPRs going around, probably as many as every other melee combined, and even it is a big step up from SMN. Surely the latter could still be made more interesting without losing its popularity.

RPR was not even the most played melee in savage 6.4 or 6.5 Anabaseios, all melee jobs were relatively close in populations.
The only time reaper was extremely popular was right when Endwalker released when they were absurdly overpowered and outright broken, and then after every other melee job got a million buffs and Abyssos hit Reapers were merely 2-3% behind the other melee in dps and their population plummeted into the ground and became the least played melee job by far and didn't recover until way later.

It's a fact people flock to the easy overpowered jobs and ditch them the second something better comes along. Can't really blame them for that, it's just the path of least resistance, what does worry me is that I can't even tell if people are defending current SMN because they actually like it, or because they want to keep their broken overpowered free ticket job. And that's very worrisome because I don't want that to happen to my favorite job. I don't want it to be demoted into a troglodyte job for people that don't play the game.

[VictorSpoils]

RPR was not even the most played melee in savage 6.4 or 6.5 Anabaseios, all melee jobs were relatively close in populations.
The only time reaper was extremely popular was right when Endwalker released when they were absurdly overpowered and outright broken, and then after every other melee job got a million buffs and Abyssos hit Reapers were merely 2-3% behind the other melee in dps and their population plummeted into the ground and became the least played melee job by far and didn't recover until way later.

It's a fact people flock to the easy overpowered jobs and ditch them the second something better comes along. Can't really blame them for that, it's just the path of least resistance, what does worry me is that I can't even tell if people are defending current SMN because they actually like it, or because they want to keep their broken overpowered free ticket job. And that's very worrisome because I don't want that to happen to my favorite job. I don't want it to be demoted into a troglodyte job for people that don't play the game.

Mostly meant in casual content. SMN definitely isn't overpowered in Savage after all.

[Aravell]

I'm not even trying to be rude its just so weird to me that people still bring up the "poison" when referring to pre-EW SMN at all as if that was some major theme of Summoner in the past 5-7 years

People keep bringing up "DoT mage", but I bet if they changed it to be thematic like if after you use Summon Bahamut, you can cast Earthshaker which applies a 30s DoT, and after you Summon Phoenix, you can cast Flames of Repentance which applies a 30s DoT, no one would complain, even though they're still DoTs.

[VentVanitas]

People keep bringing up "DoT mage", but I bet if they changed it to be thematic like if after you use Summon Bahamut, you can cast Earthshaker which applies a 30s DoT, and after you Summon Phoenix, you can cast Flames of Repentance which applies a 30s DoT, no one would complain, even though they're still DoTs.

we don't even need to imagine, Slipstream exists

[rawker]

Oh I can already sense the b-but it's a ground AoE