To YoshiP, here's what too stress-free: Healer edition

[Aravell]

But I do think that “Healer stress” should be invoked by having to heal more rather than having to handle more dps buttons and/or dps rotations. Imho Healers should be Healers. Not glorified Casters.

But again, that’s my opinion.

Your opinion is one that's seen very often, wanting to heal and not have more damage options.

I'll ask you the same questions I asked all the others then.

Why does heightened healing requirements preclude the inclusion of a more complex damage kit?
Why must we only have one or the other when we had both back in Stormblood?
How would your experience with heightened healing requirements be harmed by others optimising complex damage tools around the healing requirements?

I really don't understand why some people who want to heal more will always completely deny the side who wants the damage kit to evolve, especially when all the people who want more damage options also all support heightened healing requirements.

[Kinazu]

There is three problems with the WOW comparison

1) WOW runs on an extremely quick GCD and as such if someone suddenly gets hits with spike damage you can be healing them in less than second, for 14 it can be almost 5 seconds before you can actually hit them with a heal. The spike damage reactive whack a me healing struggles in 14 especially in single target which leads to point 2

2) targeting job party members like NPC’s and having a very short time to heal party members can make controller players struggle, this is most noticeable in AST currently but it’s also noticeable when you try to heal people in the other 2 alliances, it’s not great on console

3) in 14 the WOL is incredibly powerful, arguably the single most powerful person on etheryis, in WOW the adventurer if functionally a stand in for any old semi competent adventurer, making the WOL functionally unable to fight without a party breaks the power fantasy of the WOL

I’m not opposed to more healing but it has to work within 14’s unique situation, not that you are suggesting a 1 to 1 comparison with WOW but it’s also not like it can be implemented in a roughly similar form either even if it was tried

For 1:
I did say that WoW's healing would not work for XIV and that we should not try to achieve something like that. So I don't know why you bring this up as a point, as I agree with you on that.

For 2:
We've had something like this in Shinryu Extreme, so it can be done. If I had to suggest a quick work-around solution: Add them to the party list (with options to customise the order) when the adds appear. Or a 2nd list like the Enmity List but for "Friendly NPCs".

For 3:
I don't quite understand what you're trying to portray. Why is it that our parties are build around a certain composition? The WoL being the most powerful being in their respected universe has, imho, nothing to do with gameplay not being up to par.

[Supersnow845]

For 1:
I did say that WoW's healing would not work for XIV and that we should not try to achieve something like that. So I don't know why you bring this up as a point, as I agree with you on that.

For 2:
We've had something like this in Shinryu Extreme, so it can be done. If I had to suggest a quick work-around solution: Add them to the party list (with options to customise the order) when the adds appear. Or a 2nd list like the Enmity List but for "Friendly NPCs".

For 3:
I don't quite understand what you're trying to portray. Why is it that our parties are build around a certain composition? The WoL being the most powerful being in their respected universe has, imho, nothing to do with gameplay not being up to par.

Point 1) I am also not saying that you said that, just that’s it’s a consideration for others when you consider WOW as a comparison, I never accused you of simply saying we should copy WOW healing, slow healing must be taken as a given in the context of 14 which limits the pure healers potential

Point 2) do note that shinryu extreme was a mess for controller players, it’s probably the best example of how examples like this don’t really work that well, your workarounds if possible do actually fix this problem

Point 3) I’m saying that some WOL’s are healer mains, if the game focuses healers near entirely on healers then the “fantasy” of the power of the WOL doesn’t make any sense, the WOL being both a healer main and the WOL works precisely because healers are accomplished damage casters in their own right, since the adventurer in WOW is of no particular renown since the game doesn’t “track” your characters accomplishments it doesn’t really matter that a healer adventurer can’t really do anything by themselves

I’m not so much calling you out more just explaining the limits of a direct WOW comparison, the idea of encouraging more healing is not flawed in the slightest

[Kinazu]

Point 1) I am also not saying that you said that, just that’s it’s a consideration for others when you consider WOW as a comparison, I never accused you of simply saying we should copy WOW healing, slow healing must be taken as a given in the context of 14 which limits the pure healers potential

Point 2) do note that shinryu extreme was a mess for controller players, it’s probably the best example of how examples like this don’t really work that well, your workarounds if possible do actually fix this problem

Point 3) I’m saying that some WOL’s are healer mains, if the game focuses healers near entirely on healers then the “fantasy” of the power of the WOL doesn’t make any sense, the WOL being both a healer main and the WOL works precisely because healers are accomplished damage casters in their own right, since the adventurer in WOW is of no particular renown since the game doesn’t “track” your characters accomplishments it doesn’t really matter that a healer adventurer can’t really do anything by themselves

I’m not so much calling you out more just explaining the limits of a direct WOW comparison, the idea of encouraging more healing is not flawed in the slightest

Well, at least we agree on some points. My comparison with WoW was purely for engagement. I will fully agree that it should not be copied into XIV with a 1-on-1 comparison. I do believe, however, that certain aspects from the healing system in WoW can be used in XIV to make it more engaged. Of course, not copied directly, but changed in a way that would suit XIV’s playstyle.

And I get where you’re coming from with that fantasy, though in my point of view, being able to restore the wounded and give succour to those in need, is also a sign of a powerful caster. Just the more restorative kind rather than the destructive kind, which is something the MSQ does pretty much jack all to convey – that you’re an actual Healer. Endwalker did touch upon this a little bit, but still sparse. Even as a Healer in the MSQ you pretty much beat everyone with your prowess, sure the gameplay in that regard can feel a bit lacking, that much I agree on, but story-wise everyone is the same no matter the job they play as.

Your opinion is one that's seen very often, wanting to heal and not have more damage options.

I'll ask you the same questions I asked all the others then.

Let me start by returning the question:

Why is it that we need more DPS buttons to feel engaged in a role that’s not about dealing damage?

With that being said, I think we ultimately want the same thing – Just in a different way! Let me try to explain: If the healing requirement stays like it is now, I fully agree with you. We’d need more DPS buttons to keep us occupied. However, what I rather see, is that the healing requirement goes up so that we actually have to heal and that that becomes our primary engagement. As it stand now, the few DPS buttons that we have are our primary engagement and I’d personally enjoy it being shifted to the plethora of healing buttons that we have.

So no, unfortunately for you, I wouldn’t mind if they would add more DPS buttons, I’d fully welcome it if the healing remains the same. However, to me, that feels like leaving the role behind. I want to heal as a Healer as I enjoy that fantasy and yes, I know I can go for that “Pure Healer / no DPS”-style, but I won’t, as that feels like a waste of my, and my parties’ time.

So instead of adding more DPS-buttons, why not increase the healing so that we can use our current buttons more often? If our healing is engaging enough we don’t need more DPS-buttons. That is what I, personally, would prefer over adding more DPS-buttons.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

If they want to raise healing requirements, I would rather have the ‘Barbie EX’ style rather than ‘Abyssos Savage’ style.

I mean I would welcome both. But the latter is too closely associated with mitigation check rather than an actual heal check.

[Supersnow845]

Even mitigation checks are fine……..if the raidwide mitigation was handled near entirely by the healers

Abyssos problem was always the fact that the tanks and the DPS wouldn’t help with the mitigation then wonder why the DOT was absolutely destroying everyone, especially the tanks who would take the initial hit near raw then try to mitigate after the fact

Abyssos damage design would have been fine if not for the fact that of the 17 true raidwide damage mitigations (illumination, soil, expedience, holos, kerechole, temperance, collective, reprisal, heart of light, dark missionary, addle, feint, magical barrier, shield samba, tactician, disassemble and troubadour) only 7 are in the hands of the healers and of those 7 5 are in the hands of the shield healers,

if it was something more like 6 of 8 raidwide mitigations were the purview of the healers then abyssos would have worked fine, because either you know what you are doing and mitigate well making the DOT simple to heal or you fail to mitigate and heal heavily based on your own mistake, not stand there praying the DPS doesn’t drift their tsubame by a GCD and just decide feint isn’t worth pressing

[Aravell]

Let me start by returning the question:

Why is it that we need more DPS buttons to feel engaged in a role that’s not about dealing damage?

With that being said, I think we ultimately want the same thing – Just in a different way! Let me try to explain: If the healing requirement stays like it is now, I fully agree with you. We’d need more DPS buttons to keep us occupied. However, what I rather see, is that the healing requirement goes up so that we actually have to heal and that that becomes our primary engagement. As it stand now, the few DPS buttons that we have are our primary engagement and I’d personally enjoy it being shifted to the plethora of healing buttons that we have.

So no, unfortunately for you, I wouldn’t mind if they would add more DPS buttons, I’d fully welcome it if the healing remains the same. However, to me, that feels like leaving the role behind. I want to heal as a Healer as I enjoy that fantasy and yes, I know I can go for that “Pure Healer / no DPS”-style, but I won’t, as that feels like a waste of my, and my parties’ time.

So instead of adding more DPS-buttons, why not increase the healing so that we can use our current buttons more often? If our healing is engaging enough we don’t need more DPS-buttons. That is what I, personally, would prefer over adding more DPS-buttons.

You just gave me vague answers while dodging. Again, I ask, why must we choose one or the other? How does my enjoyment of optimising my damage rotation hurt your enjoyment of the increased healing requirements? You would literally be getting what you want if healing requirements are increased. Why does what I want have to hinge on you not getting what you want and vice versa?

Let me answer your question though, "why do we need more dps buttons to feel engaged in a role that's not about dealing damage?"? What gave you the idea that the healer role isn't about dealing damage? In FFXIV, the healer role has always been about healing as necessary and then doing damage when the party doesn't need healing, this line is literally told to all new players who did the hall of the novice, an increase of healing required doesn't automatically mean you're no longer allowed to do damage. Your experiences in other MMOs is moot, FFXIV has always had the healer role deal damage.

I've asked this same question so many times to so many people, none of them can answer why we have to exclusively have either higher healing requirements or a complex damage kit, why are they mutually exclusive? Especially when, you know, we had both already in Stormblood, we had them together, at the same time, we had to actually heal and we could optimise damage.

[Kinazu]

You just gave me vague answers while dodging. Again, I ask, why must we choose one or the other? How does my enjoyment of optimising my damage rotation hurt your enjoyment of the increased healing requirements? You would literally be getting what you want if healing requirements are increased. Why does what I want have to hinge on you not getting what you want and vice versa?

Let me answer your question though, "why do we need more dps buttons to feel engaged in a role that's not about dealing damage?"? What gave you the idea that the healer role isn't about dealing damage? In FFXIV, the healer role has always been about healing as necessary and then doing damage when the party doesn't need healing, this line is literally told to all new players who did the hall of the novice. Your experiences in other MMOs is moot, FFXIV has always had the healer role deal damage.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, I don't see the need to be so hostile whilst I do agree with you to a certain point. I never said that it's not okay to get more DPS-buttons. Heck, I even said that I would welcome it, if the healing does not change.

And I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have been healing Savage on XIV since Heavensward. I know how healing here works. I've seen it change for the worse. It's great that you enjoy your shallow DPS-rotation but I am rather done with it after years. I would rather heal more and feel like an actual Healer than having to map out an entire rotation, honestly if I wanted that, I'd play an actual Caster or something close to it. So again, I believe we want the same thing, just a different solution. I want to heal more, you want DPS more.

I believe it's time the put the heal into Healer. But I suppose I must be wrong for wanting to do more of a role that I have signed up as.

[Aravell]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, I don't see the need to be so hostile whilst I do agree with you to a certain point. I never said that it's not okay to get more DPS-buttons. Heck, I even said that I would welcome it, if the healing does not change.

And I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have been healing Savage on XIV since Heavensward. I know how healing here works. I've seen it change for the worse. It's great that you enjoy your shallow DPS-rotation but I am rather done with it after years. I would rather heal more and feel like an actual Healer than having to map out an entire rotation, honestly if I wanted that, I'd play an actual Caster or something close to it. So again, I believe we want the same thing, just a different solution. I want to heal more, you want DPS more.

I believe it's time the put the heal into Healer. But I suppose I must be wrong for wanting to do more of a role that I have signed up as.

I'm not being hostile, I bolded my question so it's easier for you to answer, a question that you're still avoiding by the way.

You keep saying that higher healing requirements and complex damage kits have to be exclusive but have yet to give a reason why, you're just acting like that's a fact of nature. How long you've been healing savage does not matter, I've also been healing savage since Heavensward. I also never said I'm happy with a shallow dps rotation, that's why I'm asking for a more complex damage kit akin to old healers.

Where did I actually say I only want to dps more? I've always advocated for higher healing requirements and a complex damage kit that I can optimise. Anyway, you're probably going to dodge the question again, so I don't know why I even bothered. You clearly substitute what I'm saying with what you think I'm saying, so we're not actually having a conversation here. But on the off chance that you actually have an answer this time, I'm going to ask once more.

Why do we have to only have higher healing requirements or a complex damage kit that we can optimise? Why can we not have both? Why can we not simply return to Stormblood design where we both get to GCD heal and I get the added bonus of optimising a damage kit around the fight? We both get what we want, why do you insist that this wouldn't work when it clearly worked before?

Edit: To be extra clear here, I am asking for both an increase to healing requirements and a more fleshed-out damage kit, I am not asking for only one, I am asking for BOTH. I want to both HEAL MORE and OPTIMISE DAMAGE. It's not hard to understand.

[Kinazu]

I'm not being hostile, I bolded my question so it's easier for you to answer, a question that you're still avoiding by the way.

You keep saying that higher healing requirements and complex damage kits have to be exclusive but have yet to give a reason why, you're just acting like that's a fact of nature. How long you've been healing savage does not matter, I've also been healing savage since Heavensward. I also never said I'm happy with a shallow dps rotation, that's why I'm asking for a more complex damage kit akin to old healers.

Where did I actually say I only want to dps more? I've always advocated for higher healing requirements and a complex damage kit that I can optimise. Anyway, you're probably going to dodge the question again, so I don't know why I even bothered. You clearly substitute what I'm saying with what you think I'm saying, so we're not actually having a conversation here. But on the off chance that you actually have an answer this time, I'm going to ask once more.

Why do we have to only have higher healing requirements or a complex damage kit that we can optimise? Why can we not have both? Why can we not simply return to Stormblood design where we both get to GCD heal and I get the added bonus of optimising a damage kit around the fight? We both get what we want, why do you insist that this wouldn't work when it clearly worked before?

Edit: To be extra clear here, I am asking for both an increase to healing requirements and a more fleshed-out damage kit, I am not asking for only one, I am asking for BOTH. I want to both HEAL MORE and OPTIMISE DAMAGE. It's not hard to understand.

Then let me answer question straight: They don't have to be excluseive from one another. Yes, we can absolutely have both. I just personally feel we're really lacking on the healing scale as of now, and that's why I advocate for more healing. Yes, I wouldn't mind a bit more complexity to the DPS rotation as well, just so that I don't fall asleep during a dungeon, but again I'd rather that I have to heal more to keep myself awake. That being said, I don't mind if both happen either. So again: I don't mind if both healing increases and that we get more DPS-options. I just have a personal preference for one, that does not mean that I disagree with you.

And on that note, I apologise. it seems I've misunderstood your post and, for me, it came across as you only wanted to increase the DPS-side of things. Miscommunications happen unfortunately.

Does that answer your question?