Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[redheadturk]

I'm negative towards ideas that are bad. And readheadturk's idea was so bad, and so poorly-articulated, that we wound up with three different interpretations of it that are all fundamentally terrible.

If you want me to be positive towards an idea, make it a good idea. It's quite simple.

Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

[Cleretic]

Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

[KrasieArk]

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

So like you know how a tank of water works? Like you our water into it and it gradually fills up right?

Zodiark was a very big bottle of Water that the Ancients needed to fill very quickly. Ergo sacrifices instant water instant filled tank.

In theory you could fill up that tank at a slower pace and still end up with the same result. I know you have a habit of arguing in bad faith but that's a pretty straight forward idea.

Where I draw criticism in the "Message is a Bottle" route is that there isnt a scenario where someone finds that message whilst the WoL isnt it Elpis. Like even as of the current patch the WoL can still actively travel back and forth to Elpis however any effect on the future only happens when the WoL is present (The Athena Saga has many examples of this).

Maybe some who isn't the person I'm quoting can answer this but do we know if time actively moves forward from when the WoL leaves Elpis and back? Because for example Asphodelus didn't appear in the Sundered World until the WoL defeated Hephaistos even though time logic says it should've been there. What Im saying here is basically using the WoL in any fashion to save the Ancients cant work unless the WoL wants to trap themself like Graha.

Also Hi new here but Ive lurked for 2 years going on Hello everyone who isnt the person Im quoting.

[Cleretic]

So like you know how a tank of water works? Like you our water into it and it gradually fills up right?

Zodiark was a very big bottle of Water that the Ancients needed to fill very quickly. Ergo sacrifices instant water instant filled tank.

In theory you could fill up that tank at a slower pace and still end up with the same result. I know you have a habit of arguing in bad faith but that's a pretty straight forward idea.

I'm not 'bad faith arguing', and in jumping in with that right away you're clearly showing that you're not really coming into this in good faith yourself; you just want to come in with a cheap gotcha. But I can tell you why this is, at best, a bad idea:

'Consumption of ambient aether' has been an actual raised crisis point for primals three different times: Ramuh, Alexander, and Eureka. On top of that, overconsumption of the land's aether was the cause of the Sixth Umbral Calamity, the flood that ended the War of the Magi. Draining the world dry like that causes a complete wasteland like we saw from The Burn, itself a non-primal instance of overconsumption of ambient aether, from when the Allagans launched Azys Lla. So far from being a completley harmless thing you could do, a primal is capable of rendering the land a barren wasteland just by being summoned. We even have some general indications of how much aether that takes; the Students of Baldesion theorized that Eureka could've drained the entire planet by just recreating the Mothercrystal--and as deeply-connected Sharlayans we can reason that they probably had accurate measurements of how big the Mothercrystal is. But perhaps even more damning: Alexander was capable of being a Calamity-level threat just by consuming the aether needed to walk. So no, I don't think Zodiark could be made by doing that without causing just irreversible harm.

But your argument is that if we just do that slowly it'll be fine. That they just siphon off tiny little bits of aether until they have all they need. Honestly, in this context I'm not sure that works; first of all it seems to presume that there's a constant supply of aether coming to the star somehow, maybe like how Earth gets energy from the sun, but I'm not entirely confident that's how it works. In fact, my counterargument would be The Burn: if there were a constant supply of aether enough to replace a Zodiark's worth of ambient aether, I think the Burn would show signs of recovery, and it doesn't.

But even putting aside the plausibility of the plan itself, there's another problem: you seem to be naturally assuming that they have a lot of time. And honestly, I don't think they have that much: the only indications of time having passed is that Fandaniel was now in the seat, and that later on Venat had recruited twelve friends. There's no indication of aging, natural death, or of changing life circumstances; the descriptions of the Twelve's predecessors sounded like people who knew each other as a snapshot, not over a long period or perhaps even that well. Menphina was young, you'd expect an over-time description would mention her growth. I've always gotten the idea that they had about a year or so. Not nearly enough time for them to have initiated and compelted a public works project so slow that it needs to be outpaced by natural regrowth.


EDIT: Had another part to this, but I was thrown off by ambiguous terms; Iscah's got the better explanation on this one.

[ZavosEsperian]

Also Hi new here but Ive lurked for 2 years going on Hello everyone who isnt the person Im quoting.

Welcome to the forums. It appears you are aware of how people can be on the forums, so with that I wish you safe travels through this land of headcanons.

[redheadturk]

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

Maybe because those consequences existed more in the Source/Shards where there was far less aether to spare? The Unsundered World had exponentially more aether between the aether pools of the Ancients themselves, [which remember, shield created prior to the Final Days reaching Amaurot means having significantly more of them around. ] and the well of aether of the world itself. No where near the concern of say. . .a Primal on the Source. Also, because they #1 did not know what they were dealing with until crap was too late [Because, ya know, they got lied to by the person you seem to have a thing for.] and #2 by the time they did know all the aether they had left to work with was themselves. You also seem to forget Zodiark provided a shield that last 12k years even ssundered and unmantled and likely would have protected Eitherys for many thousands of years more if we hadn't been forced to put Zodiark down

Where I draw criticism in the "Message is a Bottle" route is that there isnt a scenario where someone finds that message whilst the WoL isnt it Elpis. Like even as of the current patch the WoL can still actively travel back and forth to Elpis however any effect on the future only happens when the WoL is present (The Athena Saga has many examples of this).

Once the congruence has happened, there is really no worry of us getting stuck even if we do happen to be there running fates/cleaning up the monster prison/etc when it happens.

[Cleretic]

Maybe because those consequences existed more in the Source/Shards where there was far less aether to spare? The Unsundered World had exponentially more aether between the aether pools of the Ancients themselves, [which remember, shield created prior to the Final Days reaching Amaurot means having significantly more of them around. ] and the well of aether of the world itself. No where near the concern of say. . .a Primal on the Source. Also, because they #1 did not know what they were dealing with until crap was too late [Because, ya know, they got lied to by the person you seem to have a thing for.] and #2 by the time they did know all the aether they had left to work with was themselves. You also seem to forget Zodiark provided a shield that last 12k years even ssundered and unmantled and likely would have protected Eitherys for many thousands of years more if we hadn't been forced to put Zodiark down

I'm sorry, but none of these arguments really explain why the Ancient world just... didn't do, or ever bring up, the approach that had no downside whatsoever.

If this theory was plausible but just not on the table for time constraints from not knowing, then one of Elidibus, Emet-Selch or Lahabrea would've been mad when they posthumously learned they weren't given the info. They were not; Emet directly agreed that Venat made the right call, and Lahabrea just knows he'd do the same thing all over again. (Elidibus avoids the subject, probably because Lahabrea already talked about it.)

But there's that Venat element again: Venat has this information. If there was enough time and resources to make a Zodiark out of dirt, she and her crew would've known; that's especially thanks to the existence of Thaliak's predecessor, the head of Akadaemia and general Knower of Things. We all know Lahabrea can keep a secret and is willing to do shadowy stuff for what's right, so you could get him secretly on-side for the construction, and you can probably get Fandaniel on side as long as you avoid the M word; in fact, I'd even argue that if this were viable, it'd be a really good outlet for him.

So the fact that she didn't do it, and that none of the post-death Ascians begrudged her for that, suggests that 'Zodiark out of ambient aether' doesn't work. Perhaps it wasn't possible in the time they had; perhaps it wasn't possible at all; or perhaps, a society that was deeply invested in enriching their planet didn't want to lop off a chunk of it until they were a couple mass sacrifices in and their priorities shifted.


Honestly, I think your problem on this--I find it a little ironic that I'm saying this to you--is that you need to give the Ancients more credit. The Ancients were flawed, and their fall was tied to that fact, but 'stupidity' wasn't one of their flaws. They're a society that can think their way around so many problems, and both sides of the eventual conflict had their best and brightest focused on it. Do you really think that, if there was a better solution, they wouldn't have found and tried it? Most of those best and brightest had thousands of immortal years to stare at the aftermath of the problem; don't you think that, if there was a better way that was this supposedly easy and effective, they'd be cursing fate for not giving them the chance to try?