Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[Cleretic]

I am surprised you are this negative towards any ideas like this and to justify it you bring up the butterfly effect of all things. The butterfly effect implies determinism which is entirely incongruent with the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole at the narrative level, where defying fate (opposite of what determinism stands for as determinism states things are bound to happen regardless of what happens, which isn't very Final Fantasy) tends to be an ever-present theme in most, if not all, Final Fantasy titles. It begs this question: Why are you playing a game/game series where determinism is one of the least supported concepts in its themes, and is usually torn to shreds by the end of the game?

Understand I do not mean this in any negative capacity. It is just an observation that I want an answer to. Whether you indulge me is up to you, we haven't exactly been the most cordial with each other recently.

Would you prefer I say 'domino effect'? Because the point I was making was that in the context of stopping the Ancients from falling apart, you can't do a direct problem-solve if you're starting after the Metia have left; there is no means to do so. This is even true for Venat, who had a wealth of social resources available to her and knowledge of the society she's gonna use them in. It's even more true for the WoL, who in this context is a weak idiot with no friends. (That last part's a big problem, because the WoL's ostensible greatest strength is having a lot of those.) This is even a thing you yourself agree on, because your own plan still starts before that point.

If you want to save the Ancients, but only start with the WoL themselves after Ktisis (or Pandaemonium, which doesn't meaningfully change anything here), either physically present or not, you'd better have an insanely elaborate plan that can be weaved out of literally nothing, because that's what you've got. In my eyes, the butterfly effect is its best hope, the notion that the WoL can beat their proverbial wings and cause exactly the one storm you need. And frankly, that sounds like a terrible plan.

I'm negative towards ideas that are bad. And readheadturk's idea was so bad, and so poorly-articulated, that we wound up with three different interpretations of it that are all fundamentally terrible.

If you want me to be positive towards an idea, make it a good idea. It's quite simple.

[redheadturk]

I'm negative towards ideas that are bad. And readheadturk's idea was so bad, and so poorly-articulated, that we wound up with three different interpretations of it that are all fundamentally terrible.

If you want me to be positive towards an idea, make it a good idea. It's quite simple.

Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

[Cleretic]

Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

[KrasieArk]

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

So like you know how a tank of water works? Like you our water into it and it gradually fills up right?

Zodiark was a very big bottle of Water that the Ancients needed to fill very quickly. Ergo sacrifices instant water instant filled tank.

In theory you could fill up that tank at a slower pace and still end up with the same result. I know you have a habit of arguing in bad faith but that's a pretty straight forward idea.

Where I draw criticism in the "Message is a Bottle" route is that there isnt a scenario where someone finds that message whilst the WoL isnt it Elpis. Like even as of the current patch the WoL can still actively travel back and forth to Elpis however any effect on the future only happens when the WoL is present (The Athena Saga has many examples of this).

Maybe some who isn't the person I'm quoting can answer this but do we know if time actively moves forward from when the WoL leaves Elpis and back? Because for example Asphodelus didn't appear in the Sundered World until the WoL defeated Hephaistos even though time logic says it should've been there. What Im saying here is basically using the WoL in any fashion to save the Ancients cant work unless the WoL wants to trap themself like Graha.

Also Hi new here but Ive lurked for 2 years going on Hello everyone who isnt the person Im quoting.

[Cleretic]

So like you know how a tank of water works? Like you our water into it and it gradually fills up right?

Zodiark was a very big bottle of Water that the Ancients needed to fill very quickly. Ergo sacrifices instant water instant filled tank.

In theory you could fill up that tank at a slower pace and still end up with the same result. I know you have a habit of arguing in bad faith but that's a pretty straight forward idea.

I'm not 'bad faith arguing', and in jumping in with that right away you're clearly showing that you're not really coming into this in good faith yourself; you just want to come in with a cheap gotcha. But I can tell you why this is, at best, a bad idea:

'Consumption of ambient aether' has been an actual raised crisis point for primals three different times: Ramuh, Alexander, and Eureka. On top of that, overconsumption of the land's aether was the cause of the Sixth Umbral Calamity, the flood that ended the War of the Magi. Draining the world dry like that causes a complete wasteland like we saw from The Burn, itself a non-primal instance of overconsumption of ambient aether, from when the Allagans launched Azys Lla. So far from being a completley harmless thing you could do, a primal is capable of rendering the land a barren wasteland just by being summoned. We even have some general indications of how much aether that takes; the Students of Baldesion theorized that Eureka could've drained the entire planet by just recreating the Mothercrystal--and as deeply-connected Sharlayans we can reason that they probably had accurate measurements of how big the Mothercrystal is. But perhaps even more damning: Alexander was capable of being a Calamity-level threat just by consuming the aether needed to walk. So no, I don't think Zodiark could be made by doing that without causing just irreversible harm.

But your argument is that if we just do that slowly it'll be fine. That they just siphon off tiny little bits of aether until they have all they need. Honestly, in this context I'm not sure that works; first of all it seems to presume that there's a constant supply of aether coming to the star somehow, maybe like how Earth gets energy from the sun, but I'm not entirely confident that's how it works. In fact, my counterargument would be The Burn: if there were a constant supply of aether enough to replace a Zodiark's worth of ambient aether, I think the Burn would show signs of recovery, and it doesn't.

But even putting aside the plausibility of the plan itself, there's another problem: you seem to be naturally assuming that they have a lot of time. And honestly, I don't think they have that much: the only indications of time having passed is that Fandaniel was now in the seat, and that later on Venat had recruited twelve friends. There's no indication of aging, natural death, or of changing life circumstances; the descriptions of the Twelve's predecessors sounded like people who knew each other as a snapshot, not over a long period or perhaps even that well. Menphina was young, you'd expect an over-time description would mention her growth. I've always gotten the idea that they had about a year or so. Not nearly enough time for them to have initiated and compelted a public works project so slow that it needs to be outpaced by natural regrowth.


EDIT: Had another part to this, but I was thrown off by ambiguous terms; Iscah's got the better explanation on this one.

[ZavosEsperian]

Also Hi new here but Ive lurked for 2 years going on Hello everyone who isnt the person Im quoting.

Welcome to the forums. It appears you are aware of how people can be on the forums, so with that I wish you safe travels through this land of headcanons.

[redheadturk]

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

Maybe because those consequences existed more in the Source/Shards where there was far less aether to spare? The Unsundered World had exponentially more aether between the aether pools of the Ancients themselves, [which remember, shield created prior to the Final Days reaching Amaurot means having significantly more of them around. ] and the well of aether of the world itself. No where near the concern of say. . .a Primal on the Source. Also, because they #1 did not know what they were dealing with until crap was too late [Because, ya know, they got lied to by the person you seem to have a thing for.] and #2 by the time they did know all the aether they had left to work with was themselves. You also seem to forget Zodiark provided a shield that last 12k years even ssundered and unmantled and likely would have protected Eitherys for many thousands of years more if we hadn't been forced to put Zodiark down

Where I draw criticism in the "Message is a Bottle" route is that there isnt a scenario where someone finds that message whilst the WoL isnt it Elpis. Like even as of the current patch the WoL can still actively travel back and forth to Elpis however any effect on the future only happens when the WoL is present (The Athena Saga has many examples of this).

Once the congruence has happened, there is really no worry of us getting stuck even if we do happen to be there running fates/cleaning up the monster prison/etc when it happens.

[Cleretic]

Maybe because those consequences existed more in the Source/Shards where there was far less aether to spare? The Unsundered World had exponentially more aether between the aether pools of the Ancients themselves, [which remember, shield created prior to the Final Days reaching Amaurot means having significantly more of them around. ] and the well of aether of the world itself. No where near the concern of say. . .a Primal on the Source. Also, because they #1 did not know what they were dealing with until crap was too late [Because, ya know, they got lied to by the person you seem to have a thing for.] and #2 by the time they did know all the aether they had left to work with was themselves. You also seem to forget Zodiark provided a shield that last 12k years even ssundered and unmantled and likely would have protected Eitherys for many thousands of years more if we hadn't been forced to put Zodiark down

I'm sorry, but none of these arguments really explain why the Ancient world just... didn't do, or ever bring up, the approach that had no downside whatsoever.

If this theory was plausible but just not on the table for time constraints from not knowing, then one of Elidibus, Emet-Selch or Lahabrea would've been mad when they posthumously learned they weren't given the info. They were not; Emet directly agreed that Venat made the right call, and Lahabrea just knows he'd do the same thing all over again. (Elidibus avoids the subject, probably because Lahabrea already talked about it.)

But there's that Venat element again: Venat has this information. If there was enough time and resources to make a Zodiark out of dirt, she and her crew would've known; that's especially thanks to the existence of Thaliak's predecessor, the head of Akadaemia and general Knower of Things. We all know Lahabrea can keep a secret and is willing to do shadowy stuff for what's right, so you could get him secretly on-side for the construction, and you can probably get Fandaniel on side as long as you avoid the M word; in fact, I'd even argue that if this were viable, it'd be a really good outlet for him.

So the fact that she didn't do it, and that none of the post-death Ascians begrudged her for that, suggests that 'Zodiark out of ambient aether' doesn't work. Perhaps it wasn't possible in the time they had; perhaps it wasn't possible at all; or perhaps, a society that was deeply invested in enriching their planet didn't want to lop off a chunk of it until they were a couple mass sacrifices in and their priorities shifted.


Honestly, I think your problem on this--I find it a little ironic that I'm saying this to you--is that you need to give the Ancients more credit. The Ancients were flawed, and their fall was tied to that fact, but 'stupidity' wasn't one of their flaws. They're a society that can think their way around so many problems, and both sides of the eventual conflict had their best and brightest focused on it. Do you really think that, if there was a better solution, they wouldn't have found and tried it? Most of those best and brightest had thousands of immortal years to stare at the aftermath of the problem; don't you think that, if there was a better way that was this supposedly easy and effective, they'd be cursing fate for not giving them the chance to try?

[ZavosEsperian]

Would you prefer I say 'domino effect'? Because the point I was making was that in the context of stopping the Ancients from falling apart, you can't do a direct problem-solve if you're starting after the Metia have left; there is no means to do so. This is even true for Venat, who had a wealth of social resources available to her and knowledge of the society she's going to use them in. It's even more true for the WoL, who in this context is a weak idiot with no friends. (That last part's a big problem, because the WoL's ostensible greatest strength is having a lot of those.) This is even a thing you yourself agree on, because your own plan still starts before that point.

Me espousing a possible solution that happens to take place before the events of Elpis is more of a convenience than me agreeing it is the only way. Within the realm of fiction and headcanons, you can devise a solution really at any given point inside of the timeline prior to the Sundering. I chose prior to those events to maximize potential survivors and to minimize the amount of extra baggage the WoL would require to effectively deal with the problems faced after the events where Hermes orders the Metia to destroy the Universe. Nothing is impossible and defying fate is something Final Fantasy is all about, but also minimizing the number of McGuffins and Deus Exes is also something required to make the story more believable.

If you want to save the Ancients, but only start with the WoL themselves after Ktisis (or Pandaemonium, which doesn't meaningfully change anything here), either physically present or not, you'd better have an insanely elaborate plan that can be weaved out of literally nothing, because that's what you've got. In my eyes, the butterfly effect is its best hope, the notion that the WoL can beat their proverbial wings and cause exactly the one storm you need. And frankly, that sounds like a terrible plan.

Venat's plan also hinges on putting all her chips onto the WoL. All events post Elpis would be out of Venat's ability to predict due to the WoL not knowing what would happen upon returning to the present, thus unable to communicate this. As such, the following things would be unknown to her:

-The ability for the Sharlayan's and the Loporrits to construct a ship that is capable of FTL travel and is able to reach the absolute furthest point away from Etheirys in the Universe, aka Ultima Thule (note: She directed the Sharlayans to build such a vessel and it is possible she knew about what it had to be able to do since she had a Meteion tracker, however this is not explained and thus the former statement is allowed to remain.)

-The WoL being able to overcome the Endsinger inside of its own domain, which was not suitable for life and required the sacrifice of multiple Scions to reach Meteion. (note: She did enhance the Azem Crystal, but whether it would be enough would be something she would not know.)

-Zenos being pivotal to her plan's success without knowledge aforethought of him needing to be present in the final battle.

-Any and all events occurring outside of what the WoL would know she would have to direct in a way to get to all the events the WoL is describing as events as part of the MSQ (all non-essential quests outside of the MSQ can be ignored since this will differ from WoL to WoL).

-The timeline G'raha Tia was in had to play out exactly the way that it did, and her influence there would be extremely limited if any at all.

This does not include the issues surrounding the paradoxical nature of the Sundering, as there is no indication of whose idea the Sundering was. It cannot be any incarnation of the WoL in a timeline system that does not have alternate universes, as their existence hinges on the Sundering being a thing so there would never be a sundering ever unless the idea originated beyond them. In a system where Alternate Universes are allowed and time travelling spawns alternate universes, only the initial timeline and potentially the second one would be affected since the idea still has to come from somewhere, but the existence of the WoL inside of the past can be explained away a bit more simply from a logical perspective.

Yet despite all these things, the plot still works out in Venat's favor. Defying fate, defying destiny, and defying reality are all hallmarks of a Final Fantasy game. Boiling down everything into something that plays out like dominos or even a butterfly effect is effectively useless here, as the game plays out in a realm of fiction. Yet, you would likely rule out such a plot from being viable years ago with the logic you are running with for my ideas.

It is clear you are applying deterministic thinking to a game franchise that largely goes against this notion in favor of overcoming impossible odds, such as saving the Ancients from themselves. The WoL saving the Ancients from what appears to be a predestined fate from our current perspective would make for a Final Fantasy franchise styled plot as the WoL goes up against a seemingly impossible outcome, only to defy it to save those who came before, and whose sacrifices now result in their initial goal: their salvation.

So once again, I pose to you this question again: Why are you playing a game/game series where determinism is one of the least supported concepts in its themes, and is usually torn to shreds by the end of the game?

As always, when I ask these questions, it is not meant to be taken as an offense. It is me making an observation I would like to have an answer to. And while you are not obligated to answer the question, it would help me be able to potentially come up with something to your liking.