Uncapped AoE is ruining PvP Frontline/Rival Wings

[Nubrication]

Not gonna lie I resonate with the git gud attitude, seeing as we should be trying our best in FL. And while you can "git gud", your team may be that "70% of people in FL" who don't have that situational awareness required to perform well in FL. What then?

Guard is a solution for the 5 seconds you can use it across its 30-second cooldown, which leaves 25 seconds for another crowd control attack from potentially 48 other players in FL (I won't comment on class-specific defensives, because of the quality of each class defensives being wildly different. I don't expect MCH's Bishop Auto-turret to save me from a DRK Meta attack, but I would for RPR's Hell's Ingress). Maybe you can avoid those attacks, but not everyone can. When we rely on 23 other teammates to win a round, this can make the DRK meta unfun to play against, and why would we play FL if it was unfun in the first place?

I was responding to one person’s comment who was saying that guard is ONLY USED as a reaction. Which it IS NOT.

Regarding your comment - I think the problem most FL players have is that they don’t know when to back out and when to stay in the fight. If you have guard and purify both down, you should not be anywhere near melee range of an opposing group. If you have 1 or the other up, you can risk it at your own discretion.

If a DRK premade wipes out people in the frontlines while you were waiting for Purify and Guard to come back up, then simply back away. Not you specifically, but most people don’t realize that sprint is an option. It’s literally a toggle switch. Sprint far enough, mount up and regroup.

And yeah you’re right, you can’t rely on the other players which is why you (as a solo) who knows what they’re doing, needs to do as much as you can to disrupt the DRK wombo combos so that your teammates have a chance.

[Scintilla]

snip

Having never played on the Aether DC, I can only go from your experience of how FLs play out there.

My own experiences tend to be somewhat different. Yes, there are games which ultimately become a two-team competition, with the third team's hopes of winning quickly being erased, either through being unable to keep up due to general poor play or due to being constantly targeted by the two other teams. While possible in any game, the latter tends to be far more common in Seal Rock for the North spawn team. In those cases, I tend to accept it as an unlucky outcome of a 1v1v1 game. I try very hard not to descend into a defeatist attitude as there can be some spectacularly lucky comebacks, but sometimes the chasm between scores is so huge that you know you're getting 3rd and all you have left to decide is which team to focus on pushing into 2nd and which team to give the win to - usually decided by whichever team annoyed you most during the game.

Personally, I don't find it happens often enough to be too much of a nuisance, but perhaps that's solely DC differences and it may be a much more common issue on Aether.
Otherwise, I very much enjoy the 1v1v1 playstyle and would be sad to see it changed. I like the challenge and the less predictable nature. And, as an added bonus, having a 1v1v1 setup is one of the very few ways we have at the moment to counter some premades, without being forced to create a premade of your own (not a remotely good way and by no means a guaranteed way to counter them, but the only one we currently have for solo players to counter them).

[Mawlzy]

Having never played on the Aether DC, I can only go from your experience of how FLs play out there.

My own experiences tend to be somewhat different. Yes, there are games which ultimately become a two-team competition, with the third team's hopes of winning quickly being erased, either through being unable to keep up due to general poor play or due to being constantly targeted by the two other teams. While possible in any game, the latter tends to be far more common in Seal Rock for the North spawn team. In those cases, I tend to accept it as an unlucky outcome of a 1v1v1 game.

This is also the case on Aether: the scenario mostly impacts the North spawn on Seal Rock. Further, once it's happened a couple of times in a session, it tends to become the theme for subsequent matches. Not sure if this is nefarious Discord shenanigans or just monkey see, monkey do.

The fact the North spawn is particularly susceptible may suggest it's not simply an unlucky outcome. If North does its usual rush south and clashes with the southern team at the midway point, it tends to put North next to the natural feed-in channel for the western team. The only retreat direction is thus back to the North spawn, making it trivial for the other two teams to push up.

I suspect the North spawn team maybe better off initially moving west, at least while this fashion persists, but people rarely want to try it.

[Colt47]

I mean regardless of situation the main reason that frontlines is still on the DF is that frontlines would be dead without it. They added the crystal trophy points to it because CC was killing it off just by existing and having a better resource to grind for, and if FL disappeared from PF it would take hours to make three premades just to do it.

[Aubrey_A]

I was responding to one person’s comment who was saying that guard is ONLY USED as a reaction. Which it IS NOT.

Fair enough.

Regarding your comment - I think the problem most FL players have is that they don’t know when to back out and when to stay in the fight. If you have guard and purify both down, you should not be anywhere near melee range of an opposing group. If you have 1 or the other up, you can risk it at your own discretion.

If a DRK premade wipes out people in the frontlines while you were waiting for Purify and Guard to come back up, then simply back away. Not you specifically, but most people don’t realize that sprint is an option. It’s literally a toggle switch. Sprint far enough, mount up and regroup.

I find it absurd new/ newish players need to use the "sink or swim" method of learning Frontline nuance to get better at FL. DRK meta pulls are an accessory "ball and chain" to the whole "sink or swim" analogy. I don't think many FL newbies make it through the learning curve now more than ever.

And yeah you’re right, you can’t rely on the other players which is why you (as a solo) who knows what they’re doing, needs to do as much as you can to disrupt the DRK wombo combos so that your teammates have a chance.

Such is the state of the current meta. Either get good enough to disrupt enemy actions, or make an even bigger steam-roller compared to your enemies.

There have been different FL metas throughout the different expansions. To me, this meta gets most of the hate because XIV has transferred from a "kill one person at a time" meta to an "AoE is king" meta. I think this one kills morale a lot quicker.

[Scintilla]

simply back away.

If we followed the theory of 'just run away if Guard is CD' then you would spend the entire match just running away which, as I already mentioned is not the way to win FLs.

Guard CD is 30sec. Salted Earth is also a 30sec CD.
So, following your suggestion:
DRK uses Salted Earth, the target team Guard, they then have to avoid conflict while Guard is on cooldown. During this time, the DRK team grab an easy node with minimal competition. By the time the target team can return to the fight properly, the DRK is all ready to voke again. Repeat. This assuming the team only has a single DRK. What of those with multiple DRKs, able to voke almost continuously?

Obviously, being a 1v1v1 game, there is the third team to consider in this. They may decide to fight the offending team, giving the other team time to wait for CD - but multiple DRKs can easily ensure a voke is available whenever they do return from their 'cooldown wait'. They may also choose to keep to themselves and let the others fight, or may instead decide to target the victim team.

All in all 'just run away if you don't have Guard' is not a viable option. For individuals, it's possible to be more cautious if Guard is on cooldown. But if it affects vast numbers of the alliance (which it often can with DRK vokes, particularly in some zones), having practically a whole team just run away repeatedly, posing no competition at all isn't the way to win. Again - you're either giving them the win by death or mass evacuation. The outcome is the same, just the method is different.

do as much as you can to disrupt the DRK wombo combos so that your teammates have a chance

Suggestions?

MNK - Nice stuns/knockbacks. Most helpful in platformed areas, like the centre podium of Onsal, but otherwise, limited use. To jump into no-mans-land and stun the DRK while an army of recklessly confident BH5 alliance are immediately behind them and your own team are likely already beginning to split. It will delay them slightly and make yourself a nuisance. But usually that's all. And it would often mean death for yourself.

RPR / DNC LBs - RPR is quite a fast CD and less cast-time warning, so probably the most viable of the two, but again, unless you can somehow chain them (requiring your own premade), it only delays the inevitable.

WAR - Group stun to delay the approaching alliance or DRK, whichever your target. But to stun/drag the DRK, again only makes yourself a nuisance, delaying the attack by a second or two. To stun the wider alliance behind the DRK still leaves your team dead - just saves more kills for the premade DRGs.

SGE - LB is nice to cancel damage from premade DRGs and any ranged. But a very long CD and would require a decent and aware SGE on each alliance to make enough of a difference.

[Colt47]

The problem with FF is that it needs to be the mode where people who are bad at pvp can win and people who are good at pvp can win. But the issue is that the mode basically turns into if someone is not good at frontlines and is solo, they are at best getting 2nd place and that is if they are lucky. Unless bad players can win once in a while, they wont have the will to keep playing the mode and get better at it because why play something that you'll never win? Frontlines is a confusing mess for anyone going into it let alone someone who has never done PvP.

Also back to the problem of AOE being too good in PvP: The reason why it is good is that AOE often doesn't target a single person. They usually are ground placement targets or an aoe centered on the player, so it bypasses one of the biggest problems mass pvp has in this game in that someone has to target to do an ability. In CC this isn't a problem because they not only have fewer players but a convenient enemy team comp on the screen you can click to target that specific player. In Frontlines they got so many people there is no convenient targeting pool to use and because people are just running in a blob they can also hang back in the blob or run through another person to throw off attempting to target them. Hence the issue with AOE being so good: You can skip the targeting mess and also hit everyone in that big cluster.

[Nubrication]

If we followed the theory of 'just run away if Guard is CD' then you would spend the entire match just running away which...

I didn't word my previous post properly: running away and backing out are two different things in regards to PvP. Let's say you're playing a melee class, if you still have purify, you can still be in mid range (not deep into the enemy but close enough to hit an enemy close to your ball of death) and try to pick off one of their tanks or melee that's closer to your group then their own. Also, let's say in Onsal, your Guard is down but both teams (yours and 1 enemy team) are fighting for one of the side nodes, if you have teammates near you, you can literally use a dash skill to jump in, hit the person trying to cap and then back out. You should be good as long as you have purify and teammates near you. If a DRK death ball is right on top of the node fighting your team, it's not longer your job to stop the cap - it's the ranged peeps on your team. 1 MCH can plant a well placed turret and literally stop the enemy team from capping for 10 secs.

Running = actually leaving the fight.
Backing out= being in the vicinity (but not smack dab in the middle) and doing what you can from a safer distance.

But if the enemy team DID wipe out your frontlines, yeah you lost that node, just let them cap it. It's better than feeding them more BH. If you're in Seal Rock, you can always recap it later. If you're in Onsal, there's nothing much you can do at that point. Because if you're ranged (or if your guard AND purify are both down) = you're squishy = you just delaying them a few seconds but feeding them BH. They're still going to get the node. Of course there are different scenarios, there's always a chance that you might get reinforcements in time. But be situationally aware and use your best judgement.

Guard CD is 30sec. Salted Earth is also a 30sec CD.
So, following your suggestion:
DRK uses Salted Earth, the target team Guard, they then have to avoid conflict while Guard is on cooldown. During this time, the DRK team grab an easy node with minimal competition...

Most DRKs (except good players in premades) won't even salted earth more than a few players if people don't clump up (which is only difficult in the middle of Onsal). If you're in a good position before the DRK even jumps in, it's easier for you to get out. Good players are aware of their characters positioning (which actually matters more than most people think) and aware of enemy DRKs. To be prepared = higher chances of survival. Obviously the DRK isn't gonna catch the ranged unless they're dumb enough to be in melee range when they DON'T NEED to be. And most DRKs don't catch the ranged, so the ranged can hit the cappers (this of course won't work in every situation). Obviously there's so many nuances, it'll take an entire book to write down every different situation and how to prepare and react to it for every job. But the general idea is = BE SITUATIONALLY AWARE: have your map open, know where the good enemy DRKs are, see if the other alliance is missing from the map, etc. Most of this comes from experience but if you're situationally aware, you can be better prepared and LASTLY: react better. Reacting to a DRK dive that's already happening = usually already too late.

[Nubrication]

MNK - Nice stuns/knockbacks...

My question is: why would you jump into their group, when you know the DRK is eventually going to jump into yours? Solution: Wait for DRK to jump (don't get succed in or binded) give it a few milliseconds and he'll probably pop Eventide. You have to predict when he's going to use it, so use your best judgement. So after he jumps in, you dash in as a MNK, stun and knock him back out of the arena. Eventide brings him to 1HP, if you time your knockback properly, you can still kill him with fall damage. Fall damage ignores Eventide's immunity to death. This requires situational awareness.

RPR / DNC LBs - RPR is quite a fast CD and less cast-time warning...

These are the two that're hardest to escape from when in combination with a DRK. Your best option in this instance is to have the RPR or DNC marked so you know where they are and sprint away as soon as you see them coming towards you. After they pop their LBs, hopefully your team has enough people left to mount a counter attack. THE BEST TIME FOR A COUNTER ATTACK is right after the enemy premade does their burst, they'll have almost nothing left. That's assuming you survive the initial attack. Also, ranged players can cc the RPR and DNC before they get close (you'll probably have to be in melee range and risk dying BUT it will mess up their timing with the DRK). If the wombo combos are out of sync, more people will generally survive.

WAR - Group stun to delay the approaching alliance or DRK, whichever your target...

This one is easy. Be situationally aware and don't clump up to begin with.

SGE - LB is nice to cancel damage from premade DRGs and any ranged. But a very long CD...

SGE is fun if played properly and most people don't know how. There's no point using SGE LB defensively unless you have godlike reaction speed. Because you don't want to use it simply because a DRK jumps in, what if he was just baiting your CDs? The best use of SGE LB I think, is offensively. In conjunction with your own DRK (hopefully you have a good one on your team).


Of course everything I mentioned has nuances and different situations will require different responses. But if you're prepared and you know what to expect from the enemy, then you'll be better prepared to react better and properly. I play every class in PvP but MNK is one of my favorites, and I can do 10+kills with 0 deaths consistently in FL. I've also played the Feast, the Fold, CC, and have been playing FL since it's inception with Secure waaay back in the day. Take what you will from my post, or completely ignore it. Cheers.

P.S. just to clarify: this is all only in regards to FL.

[Scintilla]

snip

Positioning matters, hence why anyone actively looking out for the marked DRK can often avoid the vokes by distancing themselves from the rest of their team when they see the DRK coming. But that will save the individual, not the team. A couple of surviving players is useless when there's a full BH5 alliance scrabbling to leech what kills they can and a significant proportion of your team are now lying dead on the floor.

Some of this is no doubt down to player inexperience - you can mark the DRK and shout warnings at the start, but ultimately, you're placing your hopes on your team showing some awareness. Sometimes it's a disaster. Other times they fight well. But, from my own experience, even very good teams have a hard time vs certain premades. The effort needed to win a match as premade is almost non-existant. The effort needed to counter them is far higher. Difficulty can't all be attributed to player inexperience and 'get good':
The centre podium of Onsal is probably one of the most obvious bottlenecks, but it's by no means the only one. Shatter is another map where getting sufficient distance from your team to avoid a DRK voke is harder (obviously not the centre section, but the narrower corridors and side pockets of the map - particularly for the disadvantaged team, without a sloped entrance). Seal Rock is generally quite open so a well thought-out approach can matter significantly, but for a standard team the central passageways of stone are particularly narrow, should the fight happen to centre around there.

Generally any team with some situational awareness will likely fall back and begin to split when they see a marked DRK coming. Not ideal as you are temporarily withdrawing competition over that node solely because a single player ran in your direction (and they might not have actually used any skills at all if the split happened so quickly and unanimously that there was now nothing to voke). It's a super easy, low effort deterrant to hold back attacks. In the event you are caught by a DRK voke, the best you can really do is Guard. But for the premades which use RPR etc. to remove Guard, if you're caught, it's going to be instant death with nothing at all you can do to stop it.
In such cases, there's only really 2 ways to counter it:
1. Play with a premade of your own to counter theirs. Mind-numbingly dull playstyle for many and not really a practical option for many solo, casual players. Personally, I don't think players should ever be forced into forming a premade of their own solely to make a fair and balanced game.
2. Form an unspoken alliance with the other random team, put objectives as secondary, and both teams focus heavily on maintaining constant attacks on the premade team, camping outside their base throughout the game. Obviously, this is a lot easier said than done