Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[Lunaxia]

It's not that the cost of victory (if you want to call it that; I wouldn't) was high, it's that it was too high.

Wild suppositions aside, I'm struggling to understand the logic here. It was a terribly high cost, but the alternative was literal extinction. Are you suggesting they shouldn't have summoned Zodiark and allowed themselves to be killed... because too many of them died to bring him forth? When they would have all been wiped out regardless? And they did actually manage to survive and bring themselves back to a state of reasonable stability? I think there are a few holes in your logic there.

Meaning, even if we'd detained and unmade Etheirys' Meteion, there's a nonzero chance the Endsinger's Song of Oblivion would still hit and bring Amaurot to its nadir.

...uh, Meteion possibly managing to still flee somehow in some hypothetical scenario doesn't actually negate Hermes' responsibility in directly prohibiting her capture twice and allowing her to escape, thus allowing all of what came to pass, though. Especially the first time, when they had the opportunity to detain her before she deteriorated further and they sensed danger in the offing, and he chose not to exercise what control he may still have had over her at that point but opted to run away. Meteion was Hermes' experiment that went wrong, he not only disregarded any and every chance to stop her but actively encouraged it, and he was the one who wiped the information from their minds needed to stop her at any further juncture. So I reiterate, what happened was his responsibility.

And the question still remains: even if we'd stopped Meteion's Song of Oblivion...

How long until a mortal unleashes another, far more potent Diabolos? Or toys around with even more dangerous auracite? Another questionable Weapon? Another Black Rose, another, more deadlier disease than that which ravaged Nym? Another imperial conquest, resulting in a world war? Another battle that drains the land dry? I'm hearing the same argument and so far finding absolutely no reason why this is any more of an issue for the Ancients than it is for mortals.

Zodiark did nothing but nullify the Song of Oblivion's effects, and on Etheirys alone. That's not refusing to give credit where credit's due, that's just the reality of it.

It's true the source of the Terminus phenomenon (Song of Oblivion) wasn't made known to the Ancients, but few to none of them seemed to actually care; their primary concern was restoring the status quo prior to the Final Days, not learning what said cause was, much less dealing with it.

What I mean by credit is that he's often made out to be a very poor, unsustainable and unreliable solution to what was a deadly threat and is frequently used as an argument against the Ancients' capabilities, but the fact is, he has held up strong against Meteion's song for twelve thousand years. Clearly, it had to be dealt with at some point or other, but what I'm saying is that he's actually proven to be a stalwart and incredibly crucial line of defence while Venat... did what she did, and I think that gets swept under the rug. The Ancients knew what they were doing when they summoned him, and he is not the crooked safety pin holding everything together that he's made out to be.

I mean, "not caring" is a pretty brutal assessment of a group of people who were still in the process of trying to fix their planet from the damage of the phenomenon in the first place and had pretty much any and all hint about the primary cause behind it taken away from them before they were annihilated a relatively short while later. I know they're not exactly popular here, but you've got to give them at least some break, lol.

The point is that one Ancient, by accident, almost ended all creation. A civilization of people that powerful sits on a knife's edge; it's only a matter of time until someone casts the die, willingly, knowingly, or otherwise.

(It wasn't an accident, though.) And you're still letting your bias of the Ancients colour your perception and not answering why they were on anymore of a knife's edge than human existence as a whole. All I'm hearing is "Ancient powers are scary", for a society that actually did a hell of a job keeping such abilities in check, held themselves to an impeccable moral standard and did everything within their power to maintain balance and order in line with their gift of creation and keep watch over their people and the planet to protect and safeguard it for the future.

Also, while it's far besides the point, I think Lunaxia's got a wrong read on Hythlodaeus, who I think is just realistic about his abilities.

I think you'd have to be ignoring some pretty glaring subtext if you think Hyth isn't self-deprecating or that he's actually being "realistic" in how he perceives himself. The guy is clearly held in extremely high regard by Ancient society but still thinks himself lesser than his fellows, has little faith in any of his abilities beyond his sight - and Emet-Selch does actually have to prod him to remind him of one of his strengths, to which he panics because he fears being called "fairly skilled" will unreasonably raise everyone's expectations of him - thinks his greatest achievement and contribution despite what he's accomplished is helping his friends with their dreams, is first on the front line offering to sacrifice himself because he thinks it's the most pragmatic solution and the best way he could be of use to anyone, and his dialogue in Ktisis does not exactly jibe with the impression of someone who thinks a great deal of themselves:

"I'm not entirely useless."
"You shouldn't have [resurrected him.] No, really."
"...are you sure? [asking him to LB.]"

I don't see Venat or Emet-Selch as the type to push him when he's clearly uncomfortable with praise or attention and struggles with self-belief - if you've experience with matters of confidence, you'll know it can do more harm than good to put someone on the spot like that - and and instead rather let their regard for him speak for itself.

[Iscah]

his dialogue in Ktisis does not exactly jibe with the impression of someone who thinks a great deal of themselves:

"I'm not entirely useless."
"You shouldn't have [resurrected him.] No, really."
"...are you sure? [asking him to LB.]"

That can be in line with him normally being completely correct and honest in his poor opinion of his magical strength, and yet the magic-dampening forcefield in Ktiseos has brought everyone to equal level with him so he seems relatively more skilled here than usual.

But also, how are you "asking him to LB"? Or does one of the other characters say it?

[SannaR]

That can be in line with him normally being completely correct and honest in his poor opinion of his magical strength, and yet the magic-dampening forcefield in Ktiseos has brought everyone to equal level with him so he seems relatively more skilled here than usual.

But also, how are you "asking him to LB"? Or does one of the other characters say it?

It's when/if he is the one do use a 2 bar limit break. He says "Who? Me!? You can't be serious..." in the English. In Japanese for the same one he says "Oh dear, so do you seriously intend to rely on me!?". He normally doesn't limit break or chooses to go first as Emet-Selch or Venat tend to try to use it first.

[Cleretic]

It's when/if he is the one do use a 2 bar limit break. He says "Who? Me!? You can't be serious..." in the English. In Japanese for the same one he says "Oh dear, so do you seriously intend to rely on me!?". He normally doesn't limit break or chooses to go first as Emet-Selch or Venat tend to try to use it first.

He's also the only one of the Ktisis trust NPCs that's always DPS, so basically by any definition, if he's the one LBing, things are very bad. You ever been the only DPS left standing on a near-wipe, desperately trying to get as much damage on the board as possible to outrace the inevitable? That's exactly the emotion that comes through in those lines.

But honestly I feel like Lunaxia doesn't understand their own argument, and just understands that they're in one. This is too far all over the place to make any sense, all I can really gather is that they seem to think that Hermes is some cackling supervillain that masterminded the heat death of the universe and then just... I dunno, made it look like an accident? I genuinely can't fathom how someone lands at the thought that Hermes didn't do what he did by well-meaning accident, and I really don't get how that's somehow supported by Hythlodaeus' perceived low self-esteem.

[SannaR]

He's also the only one of the Ktisis trust NPCs that's always DPS, so basically by any definition, if he's the one LBing, things are very bad. You ever been the only DPS left standing on a near-wipe, desperately trying to get as much damage on the board as possible to outrace the inevitable? That's exactly the emotion that comes through in those lines.

But honestly I feel like Lunaxia doesn't understand their own argument, and just understands that they're in one. This is too far all over the place to make any sense, all I can really gather is that they seem to think that Hermes is some cackling supervillain that masterminded the heat death of the universe and then just... I dunno, made it look like an accident? I genuinely can't fathom how someone lands at the thought that Hermes didn't do what he did by well-meaning accident, and I really don't get how that's somehow supported by Hythlodaeus' perceived low self-esteem.

I have been that dps and most often I somehow end up being on bard or mch so that the only way to hope I survive is with second wind and a potion. Or that if the tank is still alive is able to throw me a shield that can heal me.

I feel they're trying hard to steer it towards the one that normally breaks out when talking about anything related to that subject. While also trying to argue many points that weren't all brought up by those she's arguing with. I still feel the only way to avoid the sundering and thus "save" the ancients is to prevent the releasing of the Metiea. Or at least having Hermes do one more correction of Meteion. Though that doesn't stop the world going to hell. As we know Midgardsormr was already on his way by the time we're visiting Elpis. Which means Omega is also on their way. We also know that if the Ominicrons had found a way to continue on their subjugation of the universe they would have made it to Etheirys at some point. We all know what they do when they start their attack. They target the various ecosystems of the planet and kill them off.

Even if the Onminicrons didn't come and they didn't go the way of the Nibirun then they'd end up like the EA in awaiting the heat death of the universe. If not something else coming along or the veneer peels off for one too many and the next Hermes or Athena ends up happening. Only for the counter point to be yeah well the sundered are just as capable. Where I don't think anyone is arguing against that. Just it only takes a single Ancient vs what normally is a group of sundered doing something that's able to cause world ending catastrophes.

[Carin-Eri]

I have been that dps and most often I somehow end up being on bard or mch so that the only way to hope I survive is with second wind and a potion. Or that if the tank is still alive is able to throw me a shield that can heal me.

I feel they're trying hard to steer it towards the one that normally breaks out when talking about anything related to that subject. While also trying to argue many points that weren't all brought up by those she's arguing with. I still feel the only way to avoid the sundering and thus "save" the ancients is to prevent the releasing of the Metiea. Of at least having Hermes do one more correction of Meteion. Though that doesn't stop the world going to hell. As we know Midgardsormr was already on his way by the time we're visiting Elpis. Which means Omega is also on their way. We also know that if the Ominicrons had found a way to continue on their subjugation of the universe they would have made it to Etheirys at some point. We all know what they do when they start their attack. They target the various ecosystems of the planet and kill them off.

Even if the Onminicrons didn't come and they didn't go the way of the Nibirun then they'd end up like the EA in awaiting the heat death of the universe. If not something else coming along or the veneer peels off for one too many and the next Hermes or Athena ends up happening. Only for the counter point to be yeah well the sundered are just as capable. Where I don't think anyone is arguing against that. Just it only takes a single Ancient vs what normally is a group of sundered doing something that's able to cause world ending catastrophes.

I guess this thought might be something better suited to a thread of it's own - but one can't help but wonder what would've happened if the Omicrons had reached Etheirys during the Ancients time.

[thegreatonemal]

I guess this thought might be something better suited to a thread of it's own - but one can't help but wonder what would've happened if the Omicrons had reached Etheirys during the Ancients time.

Took them over easily and would probably find no use in anything from the planet other than its abundance in aether. Creation magic is something they added as a side function into omega to copy how dragons evolve to meet different situations.

[Cleretic]

I guess this thought might be something better suited to a thread of it's own - but one can't help but wonder what would've happened if the Omicrons had reached Etheirys during the Ancients time.

Oh, they'd be extremely screwed. Like, I think we're looking at an Endsinger-level threat, in that the Ancients are going to face losses they can't even fathom, which is gonna lead into some equivalent of the sacrifice spiral that led to Hydaelyn. The circumstances will be different, we're probably not looking at mass sacrifices to a self-made god, but we'd see the exact same beats play out.

And that's if they win. Thegreatonemal has a point, I think it's far more likely to just end in the Omicrons incorporating creation magic into themselves and inventing replicators. (If they didn't already have them, which I'm unclear on.) The Omicrons are way more implacable than any of the threats that the Ancients definitely had coming; for as bad as the Endsinger, Midgardsormr or Athena are/were, once you deal with them either by destruction or just putting them at bay, they're kinda done; there's only one of them, that's only one problem to solve. But the Omicron are a massive force, known to adapt their approach; they're impossibly hard to actually stop.

I'd be on board with a separate thread of 'how well would any FFXIV civilization handle against the Omicrons'. My initial gut feeling: I think Garlemald dies first. We know from Ghordona that the Omicrons actually do have a level of threat assessment even if it's flawed, I think the Garleans have the nasty combination of being completely ineffectual while looking very dangerous.

[Cilia]

I think there are a few holes in your logic there.

Since you seem to be having trouble following the train of thought, let's go over things from the top.

The original question is "Is it possible to save the Ancients?" The short answer is no, because Amaurot sits on a foundation much more fragile than you think, and any disaster potent enough or social issue divisive enough threatens to send the house of cards tumbling down; and a single Ancient with enough knowledge / power and the motivation to do so can, by design or by accident. To say nothing of extraterrestrial occurrences that could easily disrupt their perfect little lives.

You can only save the Ancients if you're also able to save Amaurotine civilization, because they're near to terminally dependent on the easy and comfortable lifestyle it privileges them to. When faced with hardship and an uncertain future, their reaction was to retreat inward, rejecting change and the potential of the future for the familiarity and comfort of the past. The fatal mistake in that idea is that change is inevitable; it does not matter if they stop the Song of Oblivion, go back in time and stop Hermes from dispatching the Meteia, help his mental health, allow the Meteia the life experience necessary to be emotionally prepared for what's out there in the cosmos, etc. Change will come, whether we will it or not; the question is whether or not we have the resilience to deal with it, and clinging to the ignorant bliss of Amaurot would never allow humanity even the chance to actually develop that resilience.

So between the Ancients' capacity for destruction (intentional or otherwise), their lack of resilience thanks to their comfortable lifestyle, and the inevitability of change, you've got a house of cards trembling in the wind.

"Can we save the Ancients?" quickly morphs into "Can we save Amaurot?", and the answer to that question is a resounding no; not forever, at least. The Convocation cannot have a contingency for everything (re: Song of Oblivion), and if their easy lives are upset the Ancients retreat inward because they have no resilience. Would they be able to reach a consensus on whether or not to grant Midgardsormr refuge when he arrives? Be able to react quickly and effectively to Omega crashing down and tearing up the place looking for him? Etc etc. Cast the die enough times and you're going to get a critical fail, and then it all comes tumbling down.

If you want to be a little less ambitious and ask whether or not the Ancients could have been saved from the Song of Oblivion, the answer is actually yes; but, only if you go back in time and stop Hermes from sending the Meteia on their ill-fated sojourn across the cosmos. Get him some counseling, ideally from someone worldly (like Venat or Azem); get the Meteia the life experiences necessary to handle the despair that may await them out there (somehow - easier said than done in a world where pain and suffering are virtually nonexistent). Once the Meteia are out there, how in control of things Hermes is becomes extremely questionable, and detaining / unmaking the Meteion he kept with him on Etheirys does nothing - she's just one of dozens (if not hundreds) and stopping her will not stop her sisters (or their merged Endsinger form, for that matter).

Did I convey my ideas clearly? Are you gonna strawman me again? Only time will tell!

[Vyrerus]

The house of cards trembling in the wind

LoL, lmao even.

There's a few extreme problems with your reasoning here.

First, by your own logic, any sufficiently advanced civilization could be brought to ruin by a madman or otherworldly encounter. We can look to literally every encounter the WoL has ever had starting in Heavensward when we started to be told of primals so powerful they could end the entire star (Warring Triad, any Heavensward Primal that sups on the Warring Triad, Allag in general). Even before that, there was the Cloud of Darkness in ARR. We run into more and more as time goes on, what with the writers upping the ante and all. Literally saved from our own act of turning the Omega Weapon on by the grace that it just flipped off and burrowed down to do experiments, rather than raze the Source or interfere or interact with the Garleans/Stormblood story at all.

Then there's the two civilizations shown in the front 2/3rds of The Dead Ends. The plagued otter people and the Karellians. Most notably the Karellians were an advanced science fiction civilization completely bereft of magic or godlike powers.

Second, and more importantly, you're guilty of extreme bias towards the Ascians AND you've dehumanized them to the point that you are strawmanning them as badly, or perhaps worse than, the Venat metaphor BS scene.

Think about what The Final Days did. Think about what the Zodiark sacrifices did. As we're told, quite a lot of Ascians were killed by The Final Days. Out of the remainder, volunteers of half the remaining population offered up their lives to make Zodiark.

The times got tough, and then the best of the Ascians either fell victim to Blasphemies OR nobly gave their lives to make a savior.

In other words, the people in their populace who had resilience/nobility/stalwart hearts as part of their personality were very few in number after both of these events transpired.

Most of their elders and those closest to lives fulfilled likely gave themselves up if not killed.

Riding on the coattails of this traumatic, devastating event came Venat and her civil war. Not only were the worst members of the Ascian's society the only ones left, half of them decided to make war in a world that had been without it for time out of mind, and wars hardly help anyone recover from trauma.

No earnest efforts were made to help the Ascians bounce back. Hydaelyn was not made in good faith. She was never to be a mere binding for Zodiark.

How would they fare if prepared and told the truth? What could have their collective society come up with, if they'd had the truth from the start? Cast the die for enough players, and eventually you get critical successes, too. Do you really struggle to believe that the Azem of old, along with his mentor, along with the entire Convocation with truth in hand could not stop Meteion?

If not, why then do you believe that just the WoL and Zenos using two Ascian incantations can (I guess technically 3 if we include the creation rites for Shinryu)?