Which class fantasies of base classes do you like/miss?

[Vyrerus]

Consider Cecil from IV; not an ounce of religion in his character, he's just got a busload of duty and conviction.

Don't take it so personally
You're not the only one
That time has got it in for, honey
That's where you're wrong

Arctic Monkeys lyrics aside, what I mean to say is:

No religions are ever mentioned in FFIV, but the game has religious allegory surrounding literally everything within its setting, and the Paladin is referred to even in the original Japanese as a, "Sacred" or "Holy" knight, and those words are strictly tied to religion.

Keep in mind that the White Mage Rosa, and by association, the other White Mages within FFIV have the, "Pray" command as an action command (removed due to censorship of religious themes in English).

When used, if the Prayer succeeds, it recovers HP. Later, uncensored remakes have it restore MP as well. When it fails, you get a line, "The Prayer did not reach Heaven."

In Mysidia, Cecil walks into, "The House of Prayers" which was censored to, "House of Wishes." He is put on the path to becoming a Paladin by the elder sage that presides over that house and Mysidia.

Cecil's PLD uses White Magic exclusively.

More than that, The Mountain of the Ordeal has mountain stations in the original text. Mountain stations are commonly used on trail maps on mountains to denote location. But of importance here is that the stations you come across are direct references to the Stations of The Cross from Catholicism. They reference the 3rd and 7th, which are the first two times that Jesus falls while carrying the cross.

Then there's the Four Fiends being, "The Four Heavenly Kings" in JP, which is a common Buddhism reference or whatever, but the choice of their names references Dante's Inferno, which is a story that imagines what Christian Hell is like.

I'm sure there's other references throughout, but I can only recall so much on demand. The last one I can recall being the Mysidian Elder imploring all of the side characters to pray for Cecil and the party when they face off against Zeromus, which is the soul of Zemus. Zemus is the Amharic word for Prayer, making Zeromus a play on words equating to, "No Prayer."

So, while no in game god or religion is ever mentioned, the real world religion of Christianity is tied in explicitly, and there's religious framing around the main antagonist.

Keep in mind, too, that Cecil's character is all about repentance for his past evil ways and finding that not just justice, but mercy and forgiveness(for others and himself), are ways of righteousness, too. Something commonly espoused by Christianity.

Phew. That aside, I am happy that you see HW PLD quests as bad, because they really really are.

[PercibelTheren]

I really want a nature based job, probably a healer. And no, WHM having flower effects doesn't count.

[Cleretic]

So, while no in game god or religion is ever mentioned, the real world religion of Christianity is tied in explicitly, and there's religious framing around the main antagonist.

Keep in mind, too, that Cecil's character is all about repentance for his past evil ways and finding that not just justice, but mercy and forgiveness(for others and himself), are ways of righteousness, too. Something commonly espoused by Christianity.

You're not arguing that Cecil is religious. Your argument is that you projected religion onto Cecil. ...and that several other characters are more religious than Cecil. You also have this assertion that white magic is religious as, like, an inherent thing, and it's really not.

(Also, don't assume I'm some oldhead running off a bunk easy-mode version of FFIV; my first finished playthrough was the pixel remaster. You should play that, and you'll see that Cecil also isn't religious there.)

Again: Final Fantasy Paladin's roots come from a version of D&D from back when religion was just a small part of a much greater code of honor, and their 'fancier than just a warrior' magic happened to be holy-flavored to match. Look at Final Fantasy's knights and paladins across the entire series, and you see the same thing; Cecil, Steiner, Beatrix, both XI and XIV's paladins, even the Templar from Bravely Default, they're all tied up exclusively in the 'queen and country' knights, rather than the holy knights that followed after the D&D version they took their inspiration from, even if some of them have white magic (that, yes, does include the spell 'Holy' sometimes). Japan really doesn't care about Christianity except as flavor, and ESPECIALLY doesn't care about it in regards to paladins.

And I mention knights, because...

(Not to mention that the job is just called ナイト -- "Naito", i.e., "Knight" -- in Japanese. "Paladin" was a localization choice, and personally, I don't think it's an entirely unfitting one... Though I'm betting the team just thought it sounded more exciting and evocative than the alternative.)

Yeah, there is a weird thing within the Final Fantasy series where technically 'Knight' and Paladin' are supposedly distinct jobs, they just happen to cross over in skillsets to the point where they usually just get blended together both in gameplay and depiction. Neither are ever religious!

Both are heavily-armored melee fighters, but the supposed notion that you generally see emerge early on is that Knight gets Cover and martial-styled moves, while Paladin gets white magic... but that's broken even in the first FF game. To give a quick lineup of what jobs have what:

1: Knight (with white magic)
3: Knight (with cover)
4: Paladin (with white magic and cover)
5: Knight (with cover)
9: Steiner is a Knight, Beatrix is a Paladin
11: 'Knight' in Japanese, 'Paladin' in English; Cover and white magic
12: Knight in Zodiac Age only, white magic, no cover.
14: Like 11, 'Knight' in Japanese, 'Paladin' in English; Cover and White Magic.

The only game other than IX that technically has both is Tactics; Knight is a base playable job, 'Holy Knight' is Agrias' custom job.

So yeah, the distinction is nonsense, but if you really want to split hairs, XIV's Paladin is actually a Knight according to the original writing.

[Vyrerus]

You're not arguing that Cecil is religious. Your argument is that you projected religion onto Cecil. ...and that several other characters are more religious than Cecil. You also have this assertion that white magic is religious as, like, an inherent thing, and it's really not.

No, my argument is that the creators of FFIV made a deeply allegorical game and surrounded Cecil with religion and religious aspects. It is you who did not notice those allegories or aspects. Your lack of perception, willful or otherwise, doesn't change what's actually there.


In the original Final Fantasy, White Magic is inherently religious as it banishes undead, raises people back to life, and it mends wounds. Before you get access to the Life spell yourself, you resurrect party members in churches (censored in the states to be clinics). It is essentially a flavor of Cleric.

Some part of Japan is Christian, by the way, somewhere around 10 of their Prime Ministers have been Christian. It's just not big over there, having once been illegal under penalty of death. But I mean, you don't need to look very hard to find IPs with deep ties to it that use it for more than flavor. Not everything is Xenogears.

But it doesn't have to be strictly Christian to be religious, those are just really easy references to make.

I am a bigger Final Fantasy fan than you, Cleretic. By a country a mile. I have played every version of FFIV that exists (though I didn't finish After Years due to not liking it, opting to watch its Guren Lagann styled story on Youtube). The pixel remasters are great, but they aren't the original, nor are they definitive, and they even carry over multiple localization and translation errors or choices from earlier editions. See FFVI PR when it first came out changing the weapon, "Epee" to "Broad Sword" but then leaving the description as, "A thin sword designed for piercing."

And your definition of religion is apparently extremely narrow. Religions often don't even involve the invocation of deities or church systems. To be religious is to to follow a strict code, usually spiritual in nature or deeply tied to the perceived forces that uphold life.

And with your comparisons to the older knights in Final Fantasy, you have proved your short sightedness with regards to this.

Final Fantasy: Knight. The promotion of Fighter. Granted by Bahamut. Who in DND terms is a draconic deity. And we both know Final Fantasy is a DND rip off. Right down to the creature manual with only a few exceptions. Gives the Fighter the ability to use white magic, already established to be religious by its very nature. Religiosity confirmed!

Final Fantasy III: Knight. Unique class that's considered a direct upgrade of the Fighter again. Uses Holy Swords, its strongest sword being the Holy Sword Ragnarok from Eureka. This would be a case of projection when I say, it could be considered religious, since it is a power granted by the forces that uphold life, i.e. one of The Crystals of Light.

Final Fantasy IV: Paladin. The first time this specific class is used. Of deep religious significance to the Mysidian people and the Phantom Beasts. Surrounded with religious allegory, later revealed to be psychic transference of consciousness from a literal space alien in the 11th hour of the game (a father passing himself down to his son, that can only really be explained as a miracle). However, this transference was of said alien's soul, and is seen as The Power of Light, a sacred, revered, absolute power. Wields holy swords. Best weapon is the Ragnarok holy sword. Carries the theme of redemption and atonement.

Final Fantasy V: Same deal as Final Fantasy III. The Crystals are forces above nature that hold the worlds together or apart and seal great evil. The Water Crystal fragments bestow the ability to use this job. A Knight of the Crystal, as it were.

Final Fantasy VI: Magitek Knight. Celes Chere. Neither Holy nor Base. Learns Ultima "naturally" as a result of her Magitek infusion in infancy. Can absorb magic into her sword with her Runic ability. However, magic in this world is a literal gift from the gods, and the Esper Celes was granted her powers from was made by those gods. And so Celes, and every other instance of magic within FFVI is the wielding of the powers of the gods. But the closer approximations for knights as we think of them are Cyan Garamonde and General Leo, one of which is a Samurai, the other of which is just a talented warrior who sports the unique skill Shock. Celes has no code she follows and worships nothing, so is not religious. There is only mention of Prayer from Banon of the Returners (who is a priest. His skill Prayer was censored to Health).

Final Fantasy IX: Is your king and country claim.

Final Fantasy XI: Yes. In Japanese the job is Knight. However, its literal best magic skill is, "Divine Magic." This is the line of White Magic that deals in the Banish, Holy, Flash, and other such similar offensive white magics intended for eradicating undead. It can also heal and raise dying/dead allies. It also sports the Undead Killer trait and Holy Circle, which buffs all party members against undead, granting attack/defense/intimidate checks to the whole group. It is also unlocked in San d'Oria, a kingdom of Elvaans that are strictly religious towards the Goddess Altana and have an Archbishop. Its artifact armor is starkly white and crafted by San d'Orians as well. This makes it literally Paladin in all but name.

But then we get to the rub where Knight as a concept is foreign to the Japanese. They don't need to jazz it up. It carries the religious aspect in it on its own for them, seemingly. Not always. Just, usually.

[Lyth]

Secondhand embarrassment aside, I don't think that Final Fantasy is religious so much as it appropriates elements from different cultures and builds its own mythology off of them. It's not like Shiva and Lakshmi's additions to FFIV are there to invoke deliberate allegory to the Ramayana.

Either way, I think that FFIV hit on something very interesting with Dark Knight in particular. It would have been easy to construct them as a AD&D Antipaladin as a part-time evil Cleric, part time Fighter, but they didn't. They diverged away from a spellcasting aesthetic towards a gish sword-user that fires off waves of darkness from their weapon. There were forays into that on the Paladin side with the like of Shock, but I think the first game to properly unify the concept across dark and light was Final Fantasy Tactics.

I think the Ivalice raid series was what really reminded them of how popular the 'holy sword' concept was, which is why the likes of Confiteor started making their way into Paladin's kit in subsequent expansions.

The limitation in FFXIV's execution of the Paladin story likely comes down to the fact that none of the starting cities are particularly good fits for the aesthetic of a Knight Errant. That's probably why the Gladiator storyline was better and then it fell off when it was time to become a Paladin. Had the job been introduced after Ishgard was available, it would have been a different story, I suspect.

[Carin-Eri]

Oddly enough, the subject of the pre-soul crystal jobs was on my mind recently - I started a job I hadn't yet looked at as a result: Rogue.

Currently only at level 25 on said job, and am actually enjoying the job quests - but find it a little sad that the story will undoubtedly leave Jacke, The Stray and Underfoot behind once it's time to get a Soul Crystal and become a Ninja. I found them to be interesting characters.

It was the same with Archer - I recall feeling a little disappointed that we simply 'move on' from guilds that taught us our trade.

[Cleretic]

Secondhand embarrassment aside, I don't think that Final Fantasy is religious so much as it appropriates elements from different cultures and builds its own mythology off of them. It's not like Shiva and Lakshmi's additions to FFIV are there to invoke deliberate allegory to the Ramayana.

Yeah, there's just not really any inherent, ingrained religiosity in Final Fantasy as a series. If they've got something to say about a religion, they won't be subtle about it; they'll make that religion a core part of the setting and then say it LOUD, probably while having you fight either its Pope-equivalent or its Jesus-equivalent. Otherwise, FF more than basically any game series other than Megaten is about just appropriating and adapting real-world iconography to do their own thing. And hell, even Megaten shows more understanding that those symbols actually mean things.

The limitation in FFXIV's execution of the Paladin story likely comes down to the fact that none of the starting cities are particularly good fits for the aesthetic of a Knight Errant. That's probably why the Gladiator storyline was better and then it fell off when it was time to become a Paladin. Had the job been introduced after Ishgard was available, it would have been a different story, I suspect.

Honestly, I think the only part of Ul'dah that doesn't fit with the Paladin 'class fantasy' is that the paladin aesthetic just... fits a little oddly there.The conceptual and thematic trappings fit--the Ul'dahn Sultanate actually is the only throne you could plausibly pledge fealty to in the entire game world, and it's also religious enough to have that as an aspect if you truly think that's important (not necessarily a given even in Eorzea; Limsa's pretty agnostic on the day-to-day). In fact, it's also a really good fit for actually challenging the ideals of a knight like that; being a knight's all fine and dandy if the throne is strong and the kingdom is good, but Ul'dah's really not, and that's genuinely interesting. The only thing that doesn't work is that the Paladin aesthetic of heavy, white armor doesn't really track with the middle eastern-ish aesthetic of Ul'Dah, and while some side lore does its best to justify it (the armor's covered in reflective white cloth to make sure the sunlight doesn't turn the armor into an oven), it really just clashes. There's a reason that you don't see full plate in Arabian folklore.

[Enkidoh]

The reason for PLD being associated with Ul'dah was kind of out of necessity, given it was one of the original Jobs added late in 1.0's lifetime, and at the time, there was no player accessable location in Eorzea that fitted the traditional fantasy kingdom associated with knights in shining armour, other than Ishgard, and that was closed off and completely inaccessable in both 1.0 and ARR (they already stretched things by having DRG assocated with Ishgard in 1.0 but having the DRG trainer residing in an outlying hamlet in Coerthas).

Limsa is a thalassocracy with marines and pirates who wield guns and axes, and Gridania is a forest commune that relies solely on LNCs and ARCs for it's military. New Sharlayan was abandoned and inaccesable, and Ala Mhigo was a Garlean province sealed off from the rest of the continent.

Ul'dah was a monarchy, albeit a sultanate rather than a European style kingdom, so it was the closest they could fit a knight type Job, and hence PLD became the royal guard of the Sultan/Sultana, rather than a 'holy knight' beholden to a divinity or it's church (if you think about it, no matter what Job you really are, you're a 'holy warrior' in general already anyway, being the Warrior of Light, as champion to Hydaelyn and all.).

Accordingly, the player's character is still just a gladiator that has learned a few sword and shield skills from said royal guards and are basically a knight errant as an adventurer helping people and defending the helpless rather than a guardsman stuck patrolling the Hustings' Strip.

[SannaR]

Oddly enough, the subject of the pre-soul crystal jobs was on my mind recently - I started a job I hadn't yet looked at as a result: Rogue.

Currently only at level 25 on said job, and am actually enjoying the job quests - but find it a little sad that the story will undoubtedly leave Jacke, The Stray and Underfoot behind once it's time to get a Soul Crystal and become a Ninja. I found them to be interesting characters.

It was the same with Archer - I recall feeling a little disappointed that we simply 'move on' from guilds that taught us our trade.

You do get a little more with Jacke n V'kebbe in some of the later ninja quests. I also love that you get to see V'kebbe in one of the Ast quests and outside of the Bismarck. I think Perimu Haurimu is the only rogues guild member that doesn't get put into other things later on in other quests that don't involve Limsa. I do agree that the transition from rogue to ninja is a bit clunky. Though I feel that's how it is for just the three that have a disjointed in what you were learning into what the job becomes.

[Kranel_San]

(Not to mention that the job is just called ナイト -- "Naito", i.e., "Knight" -- in Japanese. "Paladin" was a localization choice, and personally, I don't think it's an entirely unfitting one... Though I'm betting the team just thought it sounded more exciting and evocative than the alternative.)

I know the devs are likely considering Knights & Paladins are one and the same in FFXIV universe, but I just like to indulge this curious idea in my mind that maybe. Maybe someone in the dev team will have that funny idea of introducing a different Paladin job and naming it accordingly in Japanese.

This is because in a few FF games, Knights and Paladins are considered to be different. But it depends on the game. However most of the time they're considered different terms for the same meaning (Like FF1 Knight is a Paladin because it can casts some of the White magic, and so on)