Feedback: It's dull when only the tank is still alive and they can't die

[Deceptus]

The reason they don’t do this is because it puts too much pressure on the healer. Tanks were not able to solo things before. This was a deliberate design choice to make sure not everything relies on the healer. Not an easy fix unless they finally make healers the win condition of a dungeon again.

Something about it causing anxiety and what not.

And that low damage, combined with tanks massive self sustain, is why healers are the first to be dropped from most mid-high level parties after prog.

[Grizzlpaw]

It's not about how people play, it's game design.

If tanks can solo bosses, the value of the healer role comes into question.

Additionally, if the DPS need a healer to survive but tanks don't then it's potentially easy to get into the situation where the tank is slowly soloing the boss even if the DPS plays perfectly. If that happens most of the party is stuck watching instead of playing which many wouldn't find ideal.

If people want to solo, there is unsync for that. Proper dungeon balance won't stop people from overgearing and doing content alone.

You can take every ounce of healing from tanks and it wouldn't stop a tank + healer from slowly soloing a boss. There's two solutions to this.

1. Make enemies hit harder. Pressure the tank and healer to burn through their cooldowns until they run out of steam and eventually die. Then DPS matters because they down the boss before you run out of cooldowns.

2. Give more fights DPS checks. A tank can't clear a DPS check on their own. If they can't down the boss before the check happens, they're better off self wiping.


A trinity doesn't have to be a hard rule. Roles can hybridize a little. Tanks heal and DPS. Healers DPS and mitigate (do re remove healer mit because they infringe on tanks?). DPS mitigate and self heal (SMN and RDM can group heal)

Stripping down jobs further isn't the answer here. Jobs are already over-pruned. We need to pressure groups enough that these hybridized tools aren't enough to coast by on.

[Ath192]

And that low damage, combined with tanks massive self sustain, is why healers are the first to be dropped from most mid-high level parties after prog.

Lets be real about this though, I've pugged reclears anywhere from extremes to Ultimates successfully and healers are always there. Dropping the healers is something the top1% of players does for a fun challenge. I wouldn't say any midcore party drops their healers after prog unless they are lying to themselves about it when they are hardcore. It takes a lot of mit planning which wouldn't be considered mid-tier raiding.

But it is pretty sad that:

A: You can
B: This is what people are doing to feel something given the state of the game

[Silverquick]

only for you, all it shows is how good a player is.

Oh I don't know about that... back in the day you could have said that... but with the new tank "features"... well.. that's pretty questionable now.

[Supersnow845]

You can take every ounce of healing from tanks and it wouldn't stop a tank + healer from slowly soloing a boss. There's two solutions to this.

1. Make enemies hit harder. Pressure the tank and healer to burn through their cooldowns until they run out of steam and eventually die. Then DPS matters because they down the boss before you run out of cooldowns.

2. Give more fights DPS checks. A tank can't clear a DPS check on their own. If they can't down the boss before the check happens, they're better off self wiping.


A trinity doesn't have to be a hard rule. Roles can hybridize a little. Tanks heal and DPS. Healers DPS and mitigate (do re remove healer mit because they infringe on tanks?). DPS mitigate and self heal (SMN and RDM can group heal)

Stripping down jobs further isn't the answer here. Jobs are already over-pruned. We need to pressure groups enough that these hybridized tools aren't enough to coast by on.

Hybrid roles means that you can assist each other in a pinch, not that a tank is a better single target healer than the healer themselves, that’s specifically why healers do less damage than DPS

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Sorry. According to a certain small indie company's logic, apparently thanks to 80% bad healers that populates the DF means the tanks must receive their immortality to keep the Duty Finder conveyor belt running smoothly. You can safely warm the floor now while the tanks do all your works for you. Please look forward to it!

/s

[Grizzlpaw]

Hybrid roles means that you can assist each other in a pinch, not that a tank is a better single target healer than the healer themselves, that’s specifically why healers do less damage than DPS

They're not. Except for arguably WAR if they have enough targets to hit.

If I want to ensure my tank doesn't die as an AST I can put 4 different stackable HoTs on them and spam Benefics. Tanks don't have anything close to that. I feel the pain healers go through but the problem isn't tank sustain. The problem is that ANY sustain we give tanks feels overpowered when there's hardly any incoming damage to speak of.

[Supersnow845]

They're not. Except for arguably WAR if they have enough targets to hit.

If I want to ensure my tank doesn't die as an AST I can put 4 different stackable HoTs on them and spam Benefics. Tanks don't have anything close to that. I feel the pain healers go through but the problem isn't tank sustain. The problem is that ANY sustain we give tanks feels overpowered when there's hardly any incoming damage to speak of.

The fact that you have to include an amendment there is the entire problem, there should never be a consideration where the tank is a better healer than the healer, WAR’s regularly outheal me in dungeons (and nobody is ever at risk of dying), that is just stupid, not a single healer can match the raw HPS of bloodwhetting on more than 3 targets, it’s straight up 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD, you cannot outdamage that

That’s the whole problem with bloodwhetting, sure if you tuned up the damage to 15 making it so the WAR crashed and burned after bloodwhetting you could probably force the healer to do something (and make 90% of the playerbase quit because of the increase in damage) but without a oneshot you physically cannot outdamage the healing potential of bloodwhetting; no skill should be like that

Damage should be tuned up so that tanks don’t need to have straight up zero self healing in order to make the healers do anything but bloodwhetting cannot be balanced around, it needs to be nerfed

[Supersnow845]

Think about it this way to give you a better visualisation

Tank “potency” is about half of healer potency when you account for traits and the like, so bloodwhetting hits for ~200 healer potency per enemy, on average an endgame double pull is about 6-8 enemies, so you are healing for bloodwhetting 1200-1600 healer potency per GCD

Now the strongest non conditional healer CD (ie not messing around with the potential of macrocosmos) is lilybell expiring with all 5 stacks intact, that’s a heal of 1000 potency and WHM gets it once per 3 minutes

That is the level of healing bloodwhetting does, 1.5x the strongest heal in the game 4 times every 25 seconds, bloodwhetting is beyond a joke, for reference the spammable healer single target GCD’s are all around 600-700 potency per GCD, if you upped damage to challenge bloodwhetting’s healing the healers straight up would not be able to keep up

[Oizen]

If you want to be technical about it it doesn't even end there. Nascent Flash literally doubles the amount of healing in play by having it apply to two targets with no real cost to it.

Hell most of the healing when using Nascent or BW kinda just falls off because its so overtuned at what its doing that it ends up just being an invul in aoe situations, or more than enough to 0 to full your Nascent Target, who unless they're the other tank, likely isnt taking that much damage