Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Sebazy]

Suggesting that hardcore raiders needed jobs to be changed to fit into the meta is missing one key detail.

Hardcore raiders would just switch to the job that was needed/best for the job at hand.

Show me a one trick player and I'll show you someone who isn't a hardcore raider.

Granted, it's fairer to say that SE saw things like 2/3 BRD teams in BCOB and felt like something needed to be done about it, but that's not really fair to pin the blame on progression raid teams.

[Heroman3003]

Suggesting that hardcore raiders needed jobs to be changed to fit into the meta is missing one key detail.

Hardcore raiders would just switch to the job that was needed/best for the job at hand.

Show me a one trick player and I'll show you someone who isn't a hardcore raider.

Granted, it's fairer to say that SE saw things like 2/3 BRD teams in BCOB and felt like something needed to be done about it, but that's not really fair to pin the blame on progression raid teams.

Tbh both can be true. They could switch jobs while also whining very loudly about how its awful and bad that the game is forcing them to switch jobs and that it shouldnt be like that.

[Supersnow845]

Why is it the only modern MMO with a full armoury system is the one so obsessed with such rigid balance all the classes play the same anyway

If SCH is in the toilet for one patch play SGE, in casual content it doesn’t even matter anyway

What’s the benefit of the armoury system if people will just camp on one job anyway they whine till it gets buffed at the expense of any diversity that makes it worth playing more than one job

[Sebazy]

Tbh both can be true. They could switch jobs while also whining very loudly about how its awful and bad that the game is forcing them to switch jobs and that it shouldnt be like that.

Saying that some would gripe about how bad a job was is fair. Suggesting that they would complain that the game is forcing them to switch isn't so much, at least not at a proper hardcore level.

As someone who has been fortunate enough to raid alongside some of the best players in EU over the years, genuine worldprog hardcores that are attached by the hip to a specific job were the minority. Most that were '1 tricks' were focusing in on a role rather than a specific job and had zero issues flexing within that niche as needed. And importantly, as Snow mentions above, the armoury system means that as long as you remember to get your niches levelled at the start of an expansion, gearing that job for a new tier is a few hours work for a strong team or FC. Crafted/melds/primal weapon/done.

Why is it the only modern MMO with a full armoury system is the one so obsessed with such rigid balance all the classes play the same anyway

Precisely that, it absolutely boggles my mind that SE don't lean on this more to prolong people's enjoyment of the game by diversifying the jobs within a role and giving them their own niches where they can excel. I had an absolute blast in Midas alternating AST and WHM depending on the floor and it really mixed things up for me despite the torrid circumstances I was playing in at the time.

FFXI often took a similar path, I'd routinely start Sky raids on SCH to cover a bunch of roles until the groups had filled out, then I'd flex to BLM, BRD or WHM as the evening progressed. As a result no two raids were the same, something FFXIV would do well to learn from.

[Heroman3003]

Why is it the only modern MMO with a full armoury system is the one so obsessed with such rigid balance all the classes play the same anyway

If SCH is in the toilet for one patch play SGE, in casual content it doesn’t even matter anyway

What’s the benefit of the armoury system if people will just camp on one job anyway they whine till it gets buffed at the expense of any diversity that makes it worth playing more than one job

That's because the design philosophy is opposite of what you're describing. It's not about adding armory system too allow content to be restrictive on kinds of jobs your can bring, it's there to support further the core design principle of "you can do anything as any job" and generally "your can engage any content without being locked out because of your job choices. And that's what armory system is for, to enable people to even go as far as to be able to play other jobs if they so wish. Armory system exists to make everything accessible to everyone, and that core philosophy also applies to design of jobs and fights. They can't make something bad for just one job because thatd be making something that can't be done as specific job (or is so much more difficult as that job compared to others, that community outcry about balance is inevitably)

[Supersnow845]

That's because the design philosophy is opposite of what you're describing. It's not about adding armory system too allow content to be restrictive on kinds of jobs your can bring, it's there to support further the core design principle of "you can do anything as any job" and generally "your can engage any content without being locked out because of your job choices. And that's what armory system is for, to enable people to even go as far as to be able to play other jobs if they so wish. Armory system exists to make everything accessible to everyone, and that core philosophy also applies to design of jobs and fights. They can't make something bad for just one job because thatd be making something that can't be done as specific job (or is so much more difficult as that job compared to others, that community outcry about balance is inevitably)

Then what’s the point of having the ability to swap between jobs when they all do the same thing, no job is allowed to have a niche, every job must be able to do everything equally competently, if anything that discourages interaction with other jobs because people know that either their job can already do everything or if it can’t that square will just buff it till it can and even if they swap they are still functionally playing the same class it’s just the other class might do 2% more damage

Square needs to respond to buffs and nerfs faster than they do but there is nothing inherently wrong with certain fights biasing certain classes when certain classes have particular niches and how they respond to different mechanics, because if your class is bad for turn 2 you can swap to another class for turn 2

for example what did SGE add for SCH mains, the classes are almost exactly the same; in that case the armoury system provided no benefit because in the pursuit of balance square just copy pasted SCH and made it a new class; especially since there is no fight where either offers a real niche over the other since they removed niche optimisation (like how SCH AST could ignore wall orbs in E10)

[ForsakenRoe]

Square needs to respond to buffs and nerfs faster than they do but there is nothing inherently wrong with certain fights biasing certain classes when certain classes have particular niches and how they respond to different mechanics, because if your class is bad for turn 2 you can swap to another class for turn 2

I'd rather have it on a 'fight mechanic' basis, rather than a whole fight by fight basis. IE, where you suggest that a class (lets say AST vs WHM), WHM is bad at turn 2, so you go AST, then AST struggles on turn 3, you go WHM, I'd rather it be more akin to P3S. AST being able to 'lol Macro' and completely remove Life's Agonies as a mechanic is cool. The issue was not that AST could delete a mechanic, the issue is that WHM had no mechanic elsewhere in the fight where IT could invalidate it, and AST had to work harder. If we had, for example, Fountain of Fire, or Firestorms of Asphodelos (the tornadoes) be quite technical for an AST to deal with, but WHM is able to 'lol Lilybell' and completely ignore it, then the fight would have one mechanic that is easily resolved by one healer, and another mechanic that is easily resolved by a different healer. And since these two healers (currently) can't do early prog due to a lack of mits, we can be sure (until SE decides the split is not really working so well) that a team has either a WHM OR an AST, not both. So one mechanic of the two has to be resolved 'properly', or potentially both, depending where the group decides to use Macro/Lilybell

The way P3S was, where AST had a mechanic it could do incredible things to resolve, and WHM having nothing by comparison, lead to the issue that I'd suggest the above to avoid: anecdotal, I know, but of all the clears of P3S I did, I don't remember a single one of them being as WHM. If I had to pureheal, I went AST despite being much worse at it, because I did not want to burden my shielding cohealer pug with 'sorry you have to spam Succor for this'

[WaxSw]

I mean the whole "It WaS MaDE for ThE HaRDcoRe" discussion has been debunked since the beggining. Just look at Mr.Happy's interview with yoshi P and besides how depressing is as healer to hear what he says he never mentions the changes being made for the hardcore players but the new (and less skilled) ones.

[Absurdity]

I'd rather have it on a 'fight mechanic' basis, rather than a whole fight by fight basis. IE, where you suggest that a class (lets say AST vs WHM), WHM is bad at turn 2, so you go AST, then AST struggles on turn 3, you go WHM, I'd rather it be more akin to P3S. AST being able to 'lol Macro' and completely remove Life's Agonies as a mechanic is cool. The issue was not that AST could delete a mechanic, the issue is that WHM had no mechanic elsewhere in the fight where IT could invalidate it, and AST had to work harder. If we had, for example, Fountain of Fire, or Firestorms of Asphodelos (the tornadoes) be quite technical for an AST to deal with, but WHM is able to 'lol Lilybell' and completely ignore it

I mean...wasn't that pretty much what WHM was able to do? Just drop Lillybell in the middle during Fountain of Fire and have it heal everyone to full on every puddle explosion.

[ty_taurus]

I mean...wasn't that pretty much what WHM was able to do? Just drop Lillybell in the middle during Fountain of Fire and have it heal everyone to full on every puddle explosion.

Roe’s point was more that healing that segment as astrologian was not particularly technical or hard. Sure, white mage did have the ability to pop the lily down, but that’s not the same as astrologian literally negating Agonies as a mechanic.

I would add to their point though that I also think it’s fine if white mage doesn’t have a particular advantage in P3S in the same was astrologian does, but can have advantages elsewhere in the tier. A suggestion I’ve made for unique white mage utility in the past was Float: a buff that allows your party to walk on air and become temporarily unaffected by floor hazards and puddle damage excluding deadly arena edges. If white mage had that, then astrologian might have an edge in P3S, but white mage would have an edge in P2S. Limit cut, for example, would be far easier to execute if the party could just cut through the center of the arena without fear of getting dropsy’d.