Feedback: Feeling disappointed by 6.55's narrative, and thus unsure about Dawntrail

[Raven2014]

I am 100% on board with that. Why you might ask? Because it's not real and I love Venat. Sure, sure, try to make people feel bad because 'GENOCIDE!!!!' WOOOOO scary!!! Na, we don't care.

Pretty much this.

The most confusing part for me about this is ... the alternative to a Venat's genocide is a Zodiak's genocide which would be something far worse. I also often asked can they provide a scenario where a solution can be found where no one have to be scarified, no tyrant, no genocide happen? Despite asking that for years, that question always get ignored, much less getting a satisfactory answer. I sometime wonder if they're just missing the point of fiction, or simply being contrarian for its own shake, or whether they're not familiar with settings that are not always unicorn and rainbow.

Take the Warhammer 40k for example:

- Space Marine is Cool.
- Inquisitor are badarse.
- The God Emperor is awesome.

But any of them would make even Hitler look like a saint. After all, xenophobic, racist, slavery are actually among the least offensive attributes you can list for humanity in that universe, dictatorship is often considered to be virtues, not tyranny. For example, what can be worse than being a slave? How about being turn into a servitor (mindless mechanical zombie) so you can be a slave for eternity? And if someone enjoy this work, it's not because they're celebrated all these things, but because we enjoy the fiction, that's it.

Some of the argument here kinda me once a while I would come across someone who try to argue the Warhammer's humanity is trashed by the modern 20th-21th century moral standard and should just let itself be wiped out. Like ... they're technically not wrong, but I do wonder how can someone miss the point of fiction that hard.

[Xirean]

The most confusing part for me about this is ... the alternative to a Venat's genocide is a Zodiak's genocide which would be something far worse. I also often asked can they provide a scenario where a solution can be found where no one have to be scarified, no tyrant, no genocide happen? Despite asking that for years, that question always get ignored, much less getting a satisfactory answer.

Really? There were actually a few answers to that question in the bigger thread on this subject. That being said it is 800+ pages so I can understand not seeing them. The only clarifier I would ask on this is what would you consider an answer and more importantly what would you consider a satisfactory answer? For me the only scenario that really matters is "Can Venat just tell the leaders about the events of Elpis and about Meteion?" I'm not overly concerned with the result of that though.

I really just think the Ancients got shafted in a large part by Venat and I just want them to have had a chance with proper warning. They made a 12,000+ year temporary solution in Zodiark whom still worked in pieces. They did that with no prior knowledge so if Venat just told them what was going on then they could probably do better with more time to prepare. If they don't though and they all die that's still fine/satisfactory to me because they had the chance.

[Raven2014]

If they don't though and they all die that's still fine/satisfactory to me because they had the chance.

The problem with that whether you are fine (or not fine) with it won't be relevant anyway. Because FF14 itself wouldn't exist. Had Venat tried to alter the time line and the Ancient still failed, Etheryl would simply become another jewel on Metion's crow and Eozia would never come into existence. Our story would end even before it begins.

[Xirean]

The problem with that whether you are fine (or not fine) with it won't be relevant anyway. Because FF14 itself wouldn't exist. Had Venat tried to alter the time line and the Ancient still failed, Etheryl would simply become another jewel on Metion's crow and Eozia would never come into existence. Our story would end even before it begins.

The problem is, you don't actually know that. That is completely theoretical. The timeline G'raha came from may potentially still exist because he does. So regardless of what happens to the world, the WoL that travels to Elpis will very likely still exist when they go back through the portal. And even if it is simply a mono timeline fiction, so what? It's ok for G'raha to potentially delete a timeline to save a world and its people, but it's not ok for the WoL to do the same? I've long held the belief that if they game lets me shake hands with a memory it better not expect me to not try and save that memory.

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." - Louisoix

it was confirmed that hyda doesnt temper anyone, although they kinda forget about the echo much at all in favor of the blessing, which was a spell venat could always use anyways. Kinda strange considering krille and iceheart

Honestly the Blessing of Light is extremely close to tempering, from my understanding. Ifrit even suggest that we are tempered when he tries to temper us in the beginning of ARR.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The problem is, you don't actually know that. That is completely theoretical. The timeline G'raha came from may potentially still exist because he does. So regardless of what happens to the world, the WoL that travels to Elpis will very likely still exist when they go back through the portal. And even if it is simply a mono timeline fiction, so what? It's ok for G'raha to potentially delete a timeline to save a world and its people, but it's not ok for the WoL to do the same? I've long held the belief that if they game lets me shake hands with a memory it better not expect me to not try and save that memory.

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." - Louisoix




Honestly the Blessing of Light is extremely close to tempering, from my understanding. Ifrit even suggest that we are tempered when he tries to temper us in the beginning of ARR.

Grahas(or the exarchs) original time line isn't deleted. It continues on to its end. But he can't save it by doing what he did. That was the point.

[Raven2014]

The problem is, you don't actually know that. That is completely theoretical. The timeline G'raha came from may potentially still exist because he does. So regardless of what happens to the world, the WoL that travels to Elpis will very likely still exist when they go back through the portal. And even if it is simply a mono timeline fiction, so what? It's ok for G'raha to potentially delete a timeline to save a world and its people, but it's not ok for the WoL to do the same? I've long held the belief that if they game lets me shake hands with a memory it better not expect me to not try and save that memory.

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." - Louisoix

Except we did try ... and failed. We were supposed NOT to try to do anything to alter the timeline and simply was on a fact finding mission. But when pressed by Venat after she discovered our "secret", the WoL pondered and (probably against better judgement) decided to reveal the future anyway. But that's exactly lead to the whole Elpis shenanigan. By the end of the Elpis arc, I think both our WoL and Venat had deduced any further attempt to alter the future is futile. Whether it's due to writing inconsistency, or simply due to the travel method, our version of time travel is not the same of the one employed by G'raha. G'raha managed to split the time line, while our followed the law of casual paradox:

- if we try to stop calamity, than it is that very effort that will cause the calamity.
- if we don't try to stop the calamity, than it will happen exactly because of our inaction.

For example, it's possible that Fedaniel would retain his sanity if he only hear the Meteion's report. He may even agree with Emer-Setch judgement and shut her down. But because of the "knowledge" about the future that our WoL disclose to him that pushed him over the edge and broke him.

In any case, "not trying" isn't something our WoL should be stand trial for ... like I said we did try ... and fail. And even if we didn't fail (or Venat tried again after we left), the only possibility is we gonna split the timeline again - making a different time line where the Ancient survive. But the Ancient in our time line gonna get screwed no matter what, that's an unchangeable fact regardless of you using the ShB or EW time travel version.

Honestly the Blessing of Light is extremely close to tempering, from my understanding. Ifrit even suggest that we are tempered when he tries to temper us in the beginning of ARR.

But Ifrit's word is not gospel though, he only stated what the feel like the most correct assumption. In Primal logic, the only reason he can't temp a person is when that person is already tempered by another primal, which is what he think the Blessing is. The Elpis segment left no ambiguity what it is: her signature "traveler ward" spell, something she casts way before she became a primal.

[Xirean]

Except we did try ... and failed. We were supposed NOT to try to do anything to alter the timeline and simply was on a fact finding mission. But when pressed by Venat after she discovered our "secret", the WoL pondered and (probably against better judgement) decided to reveal the future anyway. But that's exactly lead to the whole Elpis shenanigan. By the end of the Elpis arc, I think both our WoL and Venat had deduced any further attempt to alter the future is futile. Whether it's due to writing inconsistency, or simply due to the travel method, our version of time travel is not the same of the one employed by G'raha. G'raha managed to split the time line, while our followed the law of casual paradox:

- if we try to stop calamity, than it is that very effort that will cause the calamity.
- if we don't try to stop the calamity, than it will happen exactly because of our inaction.

For example, it's possible that Fedaniel would retain his sanity if he only hear the Meteion's report. He may even agree with Emer-Setch judgement and shut her down. But because of the "knowledge" about the future that our WoL disclose to him that pushed him over the edge and broke him.

In any case, "not trying" isn't something our WoL should be stand trial for ... like I said we did try ... and fail. And even if we didn't fail (or Venat tried again after we left), the only possibility is we gonna split the timeline again - making a different time line where the Ancient survive. But the Ancient in our time line gonna get screwed no matter what, that's an unchangeable fact regardless of you using the ShB or EW time travel version.

That's a great set of theories that I wish the game took the time to explore. Honestly if the story never had the WoL become solid and instead stay as a tiny time ghost through all of Elpis and it still played out the same way I would have been fine with that as well. Instead they become solid and say nothing until it's forced out of them which is probably the worst way to do it imo. Either way we have noway to know for sure if the WoL's actions directly led to the events that played out or not. The timeline we play through is a loop confirmed by Hydaelyn dialogue during the meeting in the Etherial Sea and further confirmed by Emet's lines in UT. We don't get to see if it's actually the casual paradox as you describe, but I would have really enjoyed if the game let us explore that and find out with absolute certainty.


I do hope though that you at least would consider this an answer to your initial question though. You didn't say what would or wouldn't be, would you mind letting me know?

But Ifrit's word is not gospel though, he only stated what the feel like the most correct assumption. In Primal logic, the only reason he can't temp a person is when that person is already tempered by another primal, which is what he think the Blessing is. The Elpis segment left no ambiguity what it is: her signature "traveler ward" spell, something she casts way before she became a primal.

I never said his word is gospel. Merely that it clearly reflects similar to what he is used to. You're free to disagree with that, however the events of EW make a lot more sense if Hydaelyn actually does temper.

[Iscah]

Except we did try ... and failed. We were supposed NOT to try to do anything to alter the timeline and simply was on a fact finding mission. But when pressed by Venat after she discovered our "secret", the WoL pondered and (probably against better judgement) decided to reveal the future anyway. But that's exactly lead to the whole Elpis shenanigan. By the end of the Elpis arc, I think both our WoL and Venat had deduced any further attempt to alter the future is futile. Whether it's due to writing inconsistency, or simply due to the travel method, our version of time travel is not the same of the one employed by G'raha. G'raha managed to split the time line, while our followed the law of casual paradox.

*causal (as in one thing causing another to happen), not casual. But anyway.

My long-running theory on this is that there is no contradiction between how time travel works in Shadowbringers versus Endwalker -- or rather, at the time I developed it, Shadowbringers versus Alexander, and then Endwalker seemed to follow the same rules I had figured for the earlier stories.

In short, as I figure it, time "prefers" to keep to a single timeline and will naturally incorporate any actions from a time traveller into the one and only version of events at the place-and-time they have journeyed to, so much as that is possible.

The only way to potentially overcome this is (1) for the time traveller to have come from the future with detailed knowledge of events at their destination, and (2) then cause changes which make the world incompatible with the future that they came from, at which point the timeline splits in two to prevent a "grandfather paradox" situation. The original timeline continues to exist because the time traveller's existence relies on it, while the second timeline carries the changed version of events.

G'raha's preventing of the Flood of Light is the only example we have which meets both of those criteria. He came prepared with very specific knowledge of what would happen -- "the Flood of Light will be triggered by the Garleans using Black Rose at the battle of Ghimlyt Dark, which causes the Light-soaked First to rejoin", probably with an exact date attached -- and he took actions that defused the situation in the First so that exact scenario could not happen.

All the time travel instances which resulted in stable time loops do not fill those two requirements:

• When we travelled to "three years ago" in Alexander, we had no opportunity to act and change things, or else our actions inadvertently made things happen as they always had; additionally, we were reliant on Mide's incomplete understanding of the situation. That doesn't rule out the possibility that we could have changed things if we took different actions.

• During the same incident, the Illuminati have the detailed knowledge they could hypothetically use to thwart the chain of events, but they are acting on the belief that they need to fulfil the events described by the book.

• When Alexander sends us back to "save ourselves" from its earlier attack, we of course succeed in doing so and thus help to create the same event we previously experienced.

• And finally, in Elpis, we have no knowledge at all about what happened to cause the Final Days, so there is nothing we can act on to prevent it. We know "something" happened, but you can't prevent "something"; if you try to prevent one something then it will just turn out that a different something was the actual cause.

Honestly if the story never had the WoL become solid and instead stay as a tiny time ghost through all of Elpis and it still played out the same way I would have been fine with that as well. Instead they become solid and say nothing until it's forced out of them which is probably the worst way to do it imo.

On the contrary, given that our purpose was to observe the situation as it was, and gain an understanding of what happened in the past, it should have been really important to observe things and not give the people of the past any future knowledge at all.

I take it as a necessity that we needed to be able to interact with people and the world for that part of the story, because delivering that much exposition through only observations would be difficult.

So, our choices are to tell everything and risk them altering their course because of that future knowledge, or to keep silent on the subject and observe until we see the unknown and undefined clue we are looking for that tells us why the Final Days happened.

It could have been handled tactfully, once Venat deduced we were from the future, by explaining to them that "I've come from a point in the future where we are facing a grave threat to the star, and we understand that at this point in the past you faced a similar threat and somehow overcame it, so I want to observe things here and see how it begins."

If it was handled like this, I could see the ancients being of the opinion that it seems fair to not risk altering events and causing a paradox, and so they will not ask you for information about what happens in their future. They could even proceed on the logic that it's fine for you to hang around and interact with people while you're here because your presence will just be part of the timeline as it always was.

[4clubbedace]

The problem is, you don't actually know that. That is completely theoretical. The timeline G'raha came from may potentially still exist because he does. So regardless of what happens to the world, the WoL that travels to Elpis will very likely still exist when they go back through the portal. And even if it is simply a mono timeline fiction, so what? It's ok for G'raha to potentially delete a timeline to save a world and its people, but it's not ok for the WoL to do the same? I've long held the belief that if they game lets me shake hands with a memory it better not expect me to not try and save that memory.

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." - Louisoix




Honestly the Blessing of Light is extremely close to tempering, from my understanding. Ifrit even suggest that we are tempered when he tries to temper us in the beginning of ARR.

sure but the blessing is something she could do as venant on elpis. its a rather generic (for the time) protection spell