A better idea for dungeons besides speed run.

[Rydin]

i'm not really sure that would make anything harder, though? we already have to kill them and it's already really easy. unless i'm misunderstanding?

If there was an optional boss in say Cutters, Not the princess... but something else... since it's optional, you can make it as hard as you want... people wont need to kill it to get the clear... but you will need to kill it to get the 5th chest... and SE would essentially let the difficulty of the Boss match the epicness of the 5th chest drop

[fusional]

If there was an optional boss in say Cutters, Not the princess... but something else... since it's optional, you can make it as hard as you want... people wont need to kill it to get the clear... but you will need to kill it to get the 5th chest... and SE would essentially let the difficulty of the Boss match the epicness of the 5th chest drop

but then shouldn't the rewards line up with the difficulty? ie: the hardest boss should drop the best stuff (body pieces). but everyone wants the best stuff. so everyone will want to farm the optional boss, making it seem less optional.

i mean, i would personally be totally fine with it, because if it's hard enough it makes the stuff it drops even more rare, because not as many people will be able to farm it (at least at first). but certainly the community would be extremely upset about it (the same people who still call ifrit/moogle difficult).

square basically only has two options- either they try to find some kind of tentative balance between easy and hard stuff , or they have separate easy and difficult content altogether. they're currently trying to use the former, and the result is both the people who want easy/easier content and the people who want hard/harder content are unhappy with it.

so it seems the only thing they can really do to appease both sides is to have the easy and difficult content be different.

WoW sort of did this by having regular and hard/heroic versions of each raid or boss. the bosses drop the same loot either way, but if you did the hard/heroic version you get a buffed version of the regular item, and that was what set the rewards apart.

other than that, you could also dial it back to TBC-era WoW where there were different tiers of raid progression, and each subsequent tier was harder, with improved loot. the top guilds push all the way to the end tier and farm it, and other girls maybe only got through the first couple.

it seemed fair to me, but naturally people complained a lot and felt entitled to the same loot/opportunities that the top guilds had, and so blizz changed it in recent patches to be more casual-friendly. and it has alienated quite a lot of their hardcore playerbase.

i mean, if Player A is able to complete a raid/boss Player B can't come anywhere near matching, why should player B still be entitled to the same or similar stuff as Player A without all the investment or execution?

so that's the challenge Square faces, and what the community has to keep in mind when making suggestions about this sort of thing. you have to keep every demographic in mind and make sure there's something for everyone, rather than just having everyone making suggestions that fall in line solely with their own gaming preferences.

and i'm being a negative nancy about it because most of what i'm seeing is "well i don't like speed runs for X reasons so here are some suggestions i would personally think is fun, without really caring about the implications it would have on other players with different and/or more demanding expectations"

[SwordCoheir]

Nyzul ^^
and I said something not so dissimilar from Dyna a ways back too ^^

Kind of like Nyzul yeah, only its a linear goal that actually progressively gets more difficult and doesn't throw groups of random objectives, mobs, or restrictions at you.

Taking my suggestion a bit further, you could throw in different modes for various levels. Like it could have a level 20, 30, or 40 Dungeon range and give different rewards for the various levels providing more content for players (especially lower level content).

[Enfarious]

we call this a straw man fallacy. feel free to quote where i've ever said speed runs are "good" or "hard" or anything similar.

and as they say- the burden of proof is on the prosecution. i didn't make the thread, so the responsibility to make the best suggestion isn't even mine. i'm simply here to point out that the suggestions we ARE getting WON'T solve the problem/s unless nobody cares about difficulty being gunned down in the crossfire.

i'm simply trying to remind people that we already have a ton of really easy, casual content in the game. we don't really have any hardcore content. speed runs aren't difficult, but they're the closest thing we currently have to hardcore content.

if you take that away, then what? where's my content? how will this be resolved?

Ok perhaps I could have said it differently, "Do you actually feel that speed runs are good, and that nothing better can be suggested?"

Or perhaps it's more that you will shoot down anything and everything.

End of it all, I just wanted to see you perhaps say something more than, "Stop suggesting lame ideas that'll make things easier." and instead offer up a way to make things better.
Just maybe dial back the "That idea sucks." and dial up a little "That's not bad, maybe with a little of this it'd be better."

How's that one go?
If your not a part of the solution ... Your a part of the problem...?
Yeah that's about it I believe.

Never did anyone say take away content either, every suggestion was in the name of improving on what's in place. Would some suggestions make things easier? Yes, have you not mention the horridly low drop rates in other posts? Yes. If this isn't enough to prove that your on the wrong side of the fence atm I don't know what is.

I'd rather not throw sticks and stones though, I'm far more interested in having a second FF MMO that is truly fun and engrossing.

[Rydin]

but then shouldn't the rewards line up with the difficulty? ie: the hardest boss should drop the best stuff (body pieces). but everyone wants the best stuff. so everyone will want to farm the optional boss, making it seem less optional.

i mean, i would personally be totally fine with it, because if it's hard enough it makes the stuff it drops even more rare, because not as many people will be able to farm it (at least at first). but certainly the community would be extremely upset about it (the same people who still call ifrit/moogle difficult).

square basically only has two options- either they try to find some kind of tentative balance between easy and hard stuff , or they have separate easy and difficult content altogether. they're currently trying to use the former, and the result is both the people who want easy/easier content and the people who want hard/harder content are unhappy with it.

so it seems the only thing they can really do to appease both sides is to have the easy and difficult content be different.

WoW sort of did this by having regular and hard/heroic versions of each raid or boss. the bosses drop the same loot either way, but if you did the hard/heroic version you get a buffed version of the regular item, and that was what set the rewards apart.

other than that, you could also dial it back to TBC-era WoW where there were different tiers of raid progression, and each subsequent tier was harder, with improved loot. the top guilds push all the way to the end tier and farm it, and other girls maybe only got through the first couple.

it seemed fair to me, but naturally people complained a lot and felt entitled to the same loot/opportunities that the top guilds had, and so blizz changed it in recent patches to be more casual-friendly. and it has alienated quite a lot of their hardcore playerbase.

i mean, if Player A is able to complete a raid/boss Player B can't come anywhere near matching, why should player B still be entitled to the same or similar stuff as Player A without all the investment or execution?

so that's the challenge Square faces, and what the community has to keep in mind when making suggestions about this sort of thing. you have to keep every demographic in mind and make sure there's something for everyone, rather than just having everyone making suggestions that fall in line solely with their own gaming preferences.

and i'm being a negative nancy about it because most of what i'm seeing is "well i don't like speed runs for X reasons so here are some suggestions i would personally think is fun, without really caring about the implications it would have on other players with different and/or more demanding expectations"

So they can't please everyone?

[Enfarious]

If there was an optional boss in say Cutters, Not the princess... but something else... since it's optional, you can make it as hard as you want... people wont need to kill it to get the clear... but you will need to kill it to get the 5th chest... and SE would essentially let the difficulty of the Boss match the epicness of the 5th chest drop

but then shouldn't the rewards line up with the difficulty? ie: the hardest boss should drop the best stuff (body pieces). but everyone wants the best stuff. so everyone will want to farm the optional boss, making it seem less optional.

i mean, i would personally be totally fine with it, because if it's hard enough it makes the stuff it drops even more rare, because not as many people will be able to farm it (at least at first). but certainly the community would be extremely upset about it (the same people who still call ifrit/moogle difficult).

square basically only has two options- either they try to find some kind of tentative balance between easy and hard stuff , or they have separate easy and difficult content altogether. they're currently trying to use the former, and the result is both the people who want easy/easier content and the people who want hard/harder content are unhappy with it.

so it seems the only thing they can really do to appease both sides is to have the easy and difficult content be different.

WoW sort of did this by having regular and hard/heroic versions of each raid or boss. the bosses drop the same loot either way, but if you did the hard/heroic version you get a buffed version of the regular item, and that was what set the rewards apart.

other than that, you could also dial it back to TBC-era WoW where there were different tiers of raid progression, and each subsequent tier was harder, with improved loot. the top guilds push all the way to the end tier and farm it, and other girls maybe only got through the first couple.

it seemed fair to me, but naturally people complained a lot and felt entitled to the same loot/opportunities that the top guilds had, and so blizz changed it in recent patches to be more casual-friendly. and it has alienated quite a lot of their hardcore playerbase.

i mean, if Player A is able to complete a raid/boss Player B can't come anywhere near matching, why should player B still be entitled to the same or similar stuff as Player A without all the investment or execution?

so that's the challenge Square faces, and what the community has to keep in mind when making suggestions about this sort of thing. you have to keep every demographic in mind and make sure there's something for everyone, rather than just having everyone making suggestions that fall in line solely with their own gaming preferences.

and i'm being a negative nancy about it because most of what i'm seeing is "well i don't like speed runs for X reasons so here are some suggestions i would personally think is fun, without really caring about the implications it would have on other players with different and/or more demanding expectations"

I agree on the certain drops from certain boss tiers, if you do the tier 1/2/3 your only get head/hands/feet, tier 4 for legs, and final for body type deal, that way it does have a progression, you can't just pop in kill the first and pop out again. In this case the bosses also need to scale up. But the drop rates still need to not suck across the board, who really wants to fight the same boss 500 times, didn't we get enough of that in Abyssea, or FFX coliseum when you decided you were gonna rebuild the entire sphere grid for fun.
New nerfed Dreamworld Dyna does this, you have the option of going in w/o access to subjobs for higher droprates and better drops, or w/ them sacrificing droprates. There's alot of other ways to acommplish the HQ raid w/o it being a timer. Level Caps for the pt you can run as a 40 for a very hard run but substantially increased droprates/quality, 45 for mid range, or 50 for easymode.

[Rydin]

I agree on the certain drops from certain boss tiers, if you do the tier 1/2/3 your only get head/hands/feet, tier 4 for legs, and final for body type deal, that way it does have a progression, you can't just pop in kill the first and pop out again. In this case the bosses also need to scale up. But the drop rates still need to not suck across the board, who really wants to fight the same boss 500 times, didn't we get enough of that in Abyssea, or FFX coliseum when you decided you were gonna rebuild the entire sphere grid for fun.
New nerfed Dreamworld Dyna does this, you have the option of going in w/o access to subjobs for higher droprates and better drops, or w/ them sacrificing droprates. There's alot of other ways to acommplish the HQ raid w/o it being a timer. Level Caps for the pt you can run as a 40 for a very hard run but substantially increased droprates/quality, 45 for mid range, or 50 for easymode.

I agree... dungeons could use a lot less crap MOBs (Antling drones) and a lot more bosses.... but give the loot at the end of the dungeon... Agreed

[SwordCoheir]

I don't think any of us would be against harder content in one aspect, but SE has to do that balancing act where they have to play to the largest community in their playerbase which is the more casual group. And idealistically the happier the majority of your group is the better off the company is financially, which means they have to make content challenging but make rewards at a realistic goal for them. Someone is never going to be happy with the end product because it's a horrendous balancing act, and unfortunately SE can't play to the small Hardcore sect's demands easily without inadvertently alienating the casual group.

That's kind of why I'm so gung-ho on the idea of difficulty/drop-rate progression. Those who are hardcore will have better odds of getting their gear before everyone else and get more challenge out of it in the process, and the more casual group may have lower odds of getting their equipment and whatnot, but will still have a fair shot if they make good progress.

[SirOleas]

I would say making dungeons fun/interesting enough to want to be in them for an extended period of time rather than just blowing through them for an extra chest is a far better idea.

I would rather solve puzzles or do something more complicated than just blowing things up fast enough to beat a clock.

[Jynx]

Why not have different bosses for different chest so people can target the loot they are going for? Make it optional to kill all the bosses for the full chest run and keep it optional to do them all seperate.

I don't know but I just don't see how "Kill it in 10 minutes" is really a challenge than it is an anoyance if you don't go in with the "perfect" party setup. Why should a group who has a higher balance of healing to DPS get shafted if they can still kill everything allbeit a bit slower?