What lore do you ignore?

[Cleretic]

... Endwalker is a lot of Nietzsche. Like, a lot a lot. Like, wow.

I mean, nihilism is not inherently negative. And I think one of the many abstract things Endwalker is focused on, many of which are related, is a very similar fundamental question: 'if life has no meaning, what do you do with it'. And your answer is ultimately personal, but that doesn't mean it has to be individualist: remember that the people who we directly see stare down the End of Days and overcome it are Thavnairians, who end up leaning on faith and religion, an ultimately extremely communal subject. Most of the role quests are also about addressing communal pains and helping each other.

The Ancient world was not destroyed by the Final Days. The Ancient world was destroyed in a terrorist attack -- The Sundering.

You are so obviously not paying attention to the arguments actually being made, and are stuck so stridently on the one you think you're having.

If I woke up as some rando in the Ancient world, I'm not scared of the End of Days. Frankly, I think I die ten seconds after the skies go red and the city is destroyed, and there's almost a level of comfort in dying so suddenly to something absolutely colossal that I both had no part in creating and had no power to stop; not really a lot of time or place for fear, at least as I process it.

I'm scared of a world where a child's nightmares can become real.
I'm scared of the world where the Behemoth is celebrated as an achievement.
I'm scared of a world so normative they can't even fathom a deviation from the norm--and what that means for me, as someone who so often doesn't fit it.
I'm scared of a world where literally anyone I meet has magic that can cause me great pain and danger, and whose power over that is so tenuous that a stray thought makes it go wrong.
I'm scared of having that power myself.
And I'm scared of a world run by fourteen people who only leave office voluntarily, who select their successors personally when they do, and who are all completely okay with everything I just mentioned.

Yeah, Thavnair's not perfect--even if I dodge the End of Days somehow, this is still a place that lost so many people on a specific pilgrimage that they started praying to the crocodile that might've eaten them--but I would still be happier and feel safer there than Amaurot. And it has nothing to do with who you think.

EDIT: Y'know what, as much as I love the non-sequitir, that needs and deserves the context.

[redheadturk]

If I woke up as some rando in the Ancient world, I'm not scared of the End of Days. Frankly, I think I die ten seconds after the skies go red and the city is destroyed, and there's almost a level of comfort in dying so suddenly to something absolutely colossal that I both had no part in creating and had no power to stop; not really a lot of time or place for fear, at least as I process it.

I'm scared of a world where a child's nightmares can become real.
I'm scared of the world where the Behemoth is celebrated as an achievement.
I'm scared of a world so normative they can't even fathom a deviation from the norm--and what that means for me, as someone who so often doesn't fit it.
I'm scared of a world where literally anyone I meet has magic that can cause me great pain and danger, and whose power over that is so tenuous that a stray thought makes it go wrong.
I'm scared of having that power myself.
And I'm scared of a world run by fourteen people who only leave office voluntarily, who select their successors personally when they do, and who are all completely okay with everything I just mentioned.

Yeah, Thavnair's not perfect--even if I dodge the End of Days somehow, this is still a place that lost so many people on a specific pilgrimage that they started praying to the crocodile that might've eaten them--but I would still be happier and feel safer there than Amaurot. And it has nothing to do with who you think.

EDIT: Y'know what, as much as I love the non-sequitir, that needs and deserves the context.

Yeah, no. why the *hell* would you be scared of a world where the entire society is pretty much gender non-conforming in the sense of "My body is just the one I was born with and does not define me as a person."? One where you don't need expensive surgeries or hormones to change your body if you feel uncomfortable in it because hey, magic can be used to shape your flesh how you want it? I would love to live in a world where I can just ]create whatever is needed so no one needs ever to starve again or fight over scarce resources. I mean, sorry, but your fears seem silly to me when the Sundered world with its pain and scarcity seems so much worse.

[Cleretic]

Yeah, no. why the *hell* would you be scared of a world where the entire society is pretty much gender non-conforming in the sense of "My body is just the one I was born with and does not define me as a person."?

It says such interesting things about you that you look at a world with one single uniform, and see any form of 'non-conformity'.

There are more parts to me than the flag that hangs in my home and the pills I take every day, all of which weigh in on my feelings about this. But even that part doesn't look at Elpis and see anything I'd want to call 'home'.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

You are so obviously not paying attention to the arguments actually being made, and are stuck so stridently on the one you think you're having.

If I woke up as some rando in the Ancient world, I'm not scared of the End of Days. Frankly, I think I die ten seconds after the skies go red and the city is destroyed, and there's almost a level of comfort in dying so suddenly to something absolutely colossal that I both had no part in creating and had no power to stop; not really a lot of time or place for fear, at least as I process it.

I'm scared of a world where a child's nightmares can become real.
I'm scared of the world where the Behemoth is celebrated as an achievement.
I'm scared of a world so normative they can't even fathom a deviation from the norm--and what that means for me, as someone who so often doesn't fit it.
I'm scared of a world where literally anyone I meet has magic that can cause me great pain and danger, and whose power over that is so tenuous that a stray thought makes it go wrong.
I'm scared of having that power myself.
And I'm scared of a world run by fourteen people who only leave office voluntarily, who select their successors personally when they do, and who are all completely okay with everything I just mentioned.

Yeah, Thavnair's not perfect--even if I dodge the End of Days somehow, this is still a place that lost so many people on a specific pilgrimage that they started praying to the crocodile that might've eaten them--but I would still be happier and feel safer there than Amaurot. And it has nothing to do with who you think.

EDIT: Y'know what, as much as I love the non-sequitir, that needs and deserves the context.

I will never understand how you can make the argument that every man, woman and child deserved to be eradicated because their post-scarcity society was "bad actually" when as she's murdering everyone, she explains it's because they have it "too good" and she's gonna make sure they have no choice but to suffer. Venat wasn't trying to make a better, more just world, if she was, she failed miserably. She was trying to make survivors by running them through a gauntlet. And I'd argue she only succeeded if one's metric for "survivor" are people who weren't murdered by her personally. Then sure. We're a game full of "survivors."

[Vyrerus]

I'm scared of a world where a child's nightmares can become real.
I'm scared of the world where the Behemoth is celebrated as an achievement.

The more faults we have to invent for the Ascians' world, the more we just point out the faults in Sundered world.

You're scared of a world where a child's nightmares can become real, but the adults in that world have dreams aplenty that can put it back to bed.

You're scared of a world where nature is so powerful that things like the Behemoth are considered a good addition to it that will balance it. How much more scary its natural order must have been! But a far finer addition to any world than a gunship the size of an aircraft carrier, or the cannons that line the Ruby Sea bay outside Hingashi.

You're scared of a world that's so accepting that it allows people to eschew its own customs without punishing them, and your favorite Ancient Venat is proof of that.

You're scared of a world where everyone has the potential to cause great pain, but almost everyone chooses not to do such things, and instead battles each other with ideas. Well, prior to their Final Days driven Civil War, anyway.

You're scared of having a power that would let you share your soul with others so directly that you could not be misunderstood, should you choose to do so. I can only envy such a wonderful power.

But emotions, which fear is, are not exactly rational anyway, so I suppose I can't fault you for that.

Nowhere is perfect. Amaurot was not perfect. But it excelled in ways we can only dream of. Post war, post scarcity, and conservationally minded in the extreme. Global Warming? Climate Change? Never heard of it.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

You're scared of a world where everyone has the potential to cause great pain, but almost everyone chooses not to do such things, and instead battles each other with ideas. Well, prior to their Final Days driven Civil War, anyway.

Is it confirmed anywhere that disagreement over the third sacrifice caused an actual civil war and not just arguing?

[Anonymoose]

Is it confirmed anywhere that disagreement over the third sacrifice caused an actual civil war and not just arguing?

Most English references say that an ideological divide gave way to open conflict and a final battle between Hydaelyn and Zodiark of a like usually found only in myth, but in French we have...

Hythlodaeus
Pour la première fois de son histoire, l'humanité était divisée en deux camps se livrant une guerre sans merci...
For the first time in its history, humanity was divided into two camps waging a merciless war...

I wouldn't say it was focused specifically on the third sacrifice, though. That was one part of a larger whole, the trend of trading more and more sacrifices (out of less and less true necessity) in a futile effort to restore "a past that could never be restored" (see: Unending Journey). It was a snowball at the core of which was the refusal to give new life and future generations a say in the way forward, aiming to reclaim the past even if it meant the "stewards of the planet" sacrificing the things they swore to be caretakers of.

[Cleretic]

Most English references say that an ideological divide gave way to open conflict and a final battle between Hydaelyn and Zodiark of a like usually found only in myth, but in French we have...

I wouldn't say it was focused specifically on the third sacrifice, though. That was one part of a larger whole, the trend of trading more and more sacrifices (out of less and less true necessity) in a futile effort to restore "a past that could never be restored" (see: Unending Journey). It was a snowball at the core of which was the refusal to give new life and future generations a say in the way forward, aiming to reclaim the past even if it meant the "stewards of the planet" sacrificing the things they swore to be caretakers of.

I've always been a little surprised that people didn't think there was any vocal opposition at all outside of Venat. Logically speaking, if your game plan is to sacrifice the lives of people who support you, then every time you do that, you're only losing supporters and the percentage of the population that's against you is only going to be proportionally larger. Surely after you burn through 75% of the population, the remaining 25% probably consists of a lot of people who aren't your supporters.

I don't like double-posting, but these really are just entirely separate points and this should be allowed to stand separately.

[Cleretic]

You're scared of a world where a child's nightmares can become real, but the adults in that world have dreams aplenty that can put it back to bed.

This is only a comfort if I'm closer to the adults than the child when it happens. And if I trust the adults.

You're scared of a world where nature is so powerful that things like the Behemoth are considered a good addition to it that will balance it. How much more scary its natural order must have been! But a far finer addition to any world than a gunship the size of an aircraft carrier, or the cannons that line the Ruby Sea bay outside Hingashi.

I'm actually scared of the Behemoth because the thought process that led to it was someone wanting to make an apex predator. Someone decided 'I'm going to win at the food chain', and everyone's okay with it. I don't like a gunship either, but at least that takes more effort and has a more deliberate purpose.

You're scared of a world that's so accepting that it allows people to eschew its own customs without punishing them, and your favorite Ancient Venat is proof of that.

My favorite Ancient is Athena.

You're scared of a world where everyone has the potential to cause great pain, but almost everyone chooses not to do such things, and instead battles each other with ideas. Well, prior to their Final Days driven Civil War, anyway.

My worry isn't just about people doing things intentionally: it's people doing it accidentally. Which we have multiple examples of.

You're scared of having a power that would let you share your soul with others so directly that you could not be misunderstood, should you choose to do so. I can only envy such a wonderful power.

I'm not scared of having the power of expression; I like art. I'm scared of having power that could hurt, especially when I may not be able to control it; it's why I don't drive.

Nowhere is perfect. Amaurot was not perfect. But it excelled in ways we can only dream of. Post war, post scarcity, and conservationally minded in the extreme. Global Warming? Climate Change? Never heard of it.

Thavnair doesn't know what climate change is, either.

[Cilia]

It's funny that people like this because it has a positive spin, but I don't disagree with your read. And who is the Ubermensch in the FF14 universe? Zenos. I've stated multiple times that Zenos is the embodiment of Venat's philosophy. But people don't like that.

I like that, because I like Zenos as a character. My moral disgust with his actions doesn't mean I can't admire his fiercely individualist philosophy, and the big lesson he has to learn in Endwalker (that you have to care about what other people want instead of selfishly pursuing your own interests to get anywhere) elevates him from villain to nominal anti-hero by the end.

My issue with Venat wasn't that she lived by her own ideals. But that she forced everyone else to live by her ideals by devolving them and shaping their beliefs for the next twelve thousand years. You and I don't seem to disagree on what happened, we just seem to disagree on if that's cool or monstrous.

While it's true that Venat blasted humanity back to the Stone Age (so to speak), she never shaped their beliefs in any way, shape, or form that's been shown. Other than people referring to the planet as Hydaelyn (instead of its Ancient-given name Etheirys, with the reason behind this unclear) and indirectly intervening whenever the Ascians step up their game, she is shown to have an extremely hands-off approach to the advancement of civilization or direction of religion. It's unclear how or why the Eorzeans came to worship the Twelve, but other than that no religion is shown to have any relation to Hydaelyn whatsoever.

It's not that I find Venat's actions cool (or not monstrous), but they're a (fictional) historical thing that happened, and arguing about whether it was cool or monstrous strikes me as wasteful. What's important is whether or not her plan worked (it did), whether or not anyone had another plan to actually deal with the root cause or even wanted to do so (they didn't), and where we can go from here (anywhere we want, as opposed to the Ancients' / Ascians' plan leaving everyone bound to the Amaurotine ideals that indirectly caused the mess to begin with).

I mean, nihilism is not inherently negative. And I think one of the many abstract things Endwalker is focused on, many of which are related, is a very similar fundamental question: 'if life has no meaning, what do you do with it'. And your answer is ultimately personal, but that doesn't mean it has to be individualist: remember that the people who we directly see stare down the End of Days and overcome it are Thavnairians, who end up leaning on faith and religion, an ultimately extremely communal subject. Most of the role quests are also about addressing communal pains and helping each other.

Nihilism is just a philosophical stepping stone towards anti-nihilism ("nothing has any meaning" -> "nothing has any meaning so I will impose my own meaning on it").

That said I acknowledge the story concludes that people live for others' sake (see Zenos learning this lesson, above) but would argue that's largely a consequence of the Eastern collectivist mindset bleeding through in spite of the Western existentialist philosophy it leans so heavily on. An indidivual's "answer" doesn't necessarily have to be individualistic, but it has to be something you reach on your own in order to live a truly fulfilling life.