Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[ForsakenRoe]

Imo it's backwards though. The encounters should also be a vehicle for the job's gameplay.

It's a bit of both really, the jobs are like a lens to view something through, and the encounter is some visually appealing thing to view. Without the view, the lens is pointless, without the lens to see the view clearly, the view can't be fully appreciated. The two have to exist in a balance, and it feels like it's skewed way too far in one direction at the moment

The easiest way to see this is with a thought experiment: if the gameplay of every job (yes even the DPS) were made into 'press 1 over and over (literally one button, no CDs or rotation) until the boss dies, like the RP scenarios in the MSQ', but the encounter complexity was ramped up to compensate, would the game be fun to play?

[Atelier-Bagur]

It's a bit of both really, the jobs are like a lens to view something through, and the encounter is some visually appealing thing to view. Without the view, the lens is pointless, without the lens to see the view clearly, the view can't be fully appreciated. The two have to exist in a balance, and it feels like it's skewed way too far in one direction at the moment

The easiest way to see this is with a thought experiment: if the gameplay of every job (yes even the DPS) were made into 'press 1 over and over (literally one button, no CDs or rotation) until the boss dies, like the RP scenarios in the MSQ', but the encounter complexity was ramped up to compensate, would the game be fun to play?

Well yeah because that better smooths out the experience. If the class was not only hard to play but also combat encounters were also hard then many people would just not have fun with it due to the over complexity over a gameplay design. This is why a game like Street Fighter works so well because the moves and mechanics are very easy to pull off but the complexity comes from how well you use those easy to learn moves in a bout with another skilled player.

So yeah in our case if battle encounters and combat were made more complex then the jobs would theoretically be a lot more satisfying to play because the satisfaction comes from mastering the relatively simple to play job. And no I dont think Savage is the answer to this, I still think the combat design in this case is too obtuse if that makes any sense. The battle engine needs to be reworked and preferrably something much snappier, faster and smoother to play.

[Lailani_Fey]

I can't emphasise enough how much I dislike mit checks. Regardless if it's P12S or DSR, those mit checks make you feel utterly helpless as Pure Healer. It is one thing to make content more difficult or supporting coordination within the group but it is another to strip a role of their power and self-sufficiency. If instead of mit checks they made bosses use skills that requried coordinated actions to cancel out, like multiple interrupts, this would feel completely different.

[Turtledeluxe]

Well yeah because that better smooths out the experience. If the class was not only hard to play but also combat encounters were also hard then many people would just not have fun with it due to the over complexity over a gameplay design. This is why a game like Street Fighter works so well because the moves and mechanics are very easy to pull off but the complexity comes from how well you use those easy to learn moves in a bout with another skilled player.

So yeah in our case if battle encounters and combat were made more complex then the jobs would theoretically be a lot more satisfying to play because the satisfaction comes from mastering the relatively simple to play job. And no I dont think Savage is the answer to this, I still think the combat design in this case is too obtuse if that makes any sense. The battle engine needs to be reworked and preferrably something much snappier, faster and smoother to play.

I don't think anyone wants jobs to be overly difficult but rather have more engaging rotations. XIV is not a fighting game, it's an MMO based on a character and job driven IP where roles and team strategy are generally important. Jobs and roles can be smooth without minmaxing their button presses into harmonious oblivion. Fights can be done without two minute metas hand holding you toward a generic zerg burst.

Also the fact that content can't be engaging unless you go from 10 to 100 difficulty wise in an outdated framework is another problem to add to the list imo.

[Remember_The_Name]

The two have to exist in a balance, and it feels like it's skewed way too far in one direction at the moment

Absolutely.
When I was watching videos with retrospective of jobs in previous expansions, I understood that jobs had more complexity and depth. While not all implications were perfect (TP for example and much more), it was an interesting puzzle to solve even when doing HW and SB duties. And, while the encounters themselves were not that loaded when comparing to EW and ShB, such job complexity was balancing out lack of mechanics.

Yes, there was some jank, there were problems with aligning burst windows, tank stance dancing, freaking Cleric Stance, yadda-yadda. But figuring out the optimal way even through mentioned problems gave players abilty to express their mastery over the job and a sense of fulfilment when achieving the desired result! And the roughest edges could've been polished into a better version anyway.

But CBU3, with their weird shtick of overcorrecting EVERYTHING, decided to pick up the sledgehammer and whack some major mechanics and interactions the F outta the game. Healers took the biggest blow, unfortunately.

Now, with the jobs streamlined and homogenized, they are trying to compensate by making encounters more and more punishing, complex and strict. But it did not worked out that way. Instead, they made Savage into boring body check simulator, where one mistake results in a raid wipe or causes such severe consequences that it's better to run into the wall and start over.

And the satisfaction of playing the job correctly is not there. The rotations are pretty simple (unless you play God's favourite - BLM) and all buffs are perfectly aligned with each other. There is no depth anymore.

[Turtledeluxe]

And the satisfaction of playing the job correctly is not there. The rotations are pretty simple (unless you play God's favourite - BLM) and all buffs are perfectly aligned with each other. There is no depth anymore.

I laughed out loud.

But yeah- it's interesting when people say "well what do you mean when you say the game lacks job identity" or "what are your solutions" when the game's foundation has examples of it even if they weren't perfectly balanced or optimal. It's obvious that this scale of Job vs Encounter engagement has always existed and has simply tipped nearly all the way in the Encounter direction for too many jobs. When people say there are no new solutions-- There's a thread about new job abilities up right now. And I see players talk about their job rotations literally all of the time. The desire is there, the question imo is whether the devs will ever have the audacity to step on minmaxer toes again. Because that's what I think about when I read that thread-- "This sounds cool but the base of the game doesn't want jobs to be cool".

[Colt47]

When you put it that way it starts to sound more and more that they are making systems and hoping they work rather than making sure they are good and functional. A scary thought.

Technically, they don't know if what they are doing is what people want or if it benefits the most players. The only way they know they are doing something right or wrong is if the people who play the game give feedback on the subject, otherwise they will make the same mistakes over and over again. The only reason Savage is playable at all is because there are people whose job is to cover FFXIV content. Whether they are doing it as a side gig or it's a primary full time deal, normal people can't blind prog a savage fight and believe me I've seen this first hand. Those guys who do the fight diagrams and run this stuff day 1 are spending more time than anyone can even begin to imagine on these fights, and when they say that they see patterns and that makes it easier for them to do these fights, that is because they have sat down, spent hours taking apart the darn things for years, and are able to reassemble the steps needed to complete the puzzle.

[OgruMogru]

The easiest way to see this is with a thought experiment: if the gameplay of every job (yes even the DPS) were made into 'press 1 over and over (literally one button, no CDs or rotation) until the boss dies, like the RP scenarios in the MSQ', but the encounter complexity was ramped up to compensate, would the game be fun to play?

This sounds like my personal nightmare tbh - I think we spoke before about how it's been harder to keep track of mechanics in fights as healers because spamming 1 button over and over means you have no points of reference throughout a fight of upcoming mechanics or any sense of fight rhythm. Putting my controller on turbo mode to spam one button for 8 minutes sounds ghastly. I'm a career Blm and one of the things I enjoy most about the class is the amount of timers I have to keep track of that help punctuate whatever battle content I'm doing. 30sec for Xenoglossy charges, 15 seconds Af before refresh then another 15 sec, 30 sec on thunder, 20sec on procs. Even tho Blm rotation is largely spamming 1 button paying attention to those timers really help to ground me temporally and keep me present throughout the whole fight. Old Sch dots served a similar purpose and I've chatted at length about this with my partner who is a career Sch and they sorely miss that added layer of complexity. Blm is the only job that still relies heavily on a series of timers to keep track of and it's imo why it's remained satisfying to play despite also being made easier throughout the expansions [enochian changes, paradox, longer thundercloud timer, more instas etc etc] If we all just had 1 button to spam would there even be any point in there being *any* jobs in the game at all?

[TomsYoungerBro]

Now, with the jobs streamlined and homogenized, they are trying to compensate by making encounters more and more punishing, complex and strict. But it did not worked out that way. Instead, they made Savage into boring body check simulator, where one mistake results in a raid wipe or causes such severe consequences that it's better to run into the wall and start over.

Not only did it not work out well, but they've already hit the "ceiling" with TOP I believe. Basically every mechanic (aside from tank busters) is built where any person can get any responsibility, making it as complex as possible regardless of role in the party. They lean on the randomness of the mechanic's difficulty instead of leaning on the role/class difficulty (because they've watered down class design D: )

[Absurdity]

The desire is there, the question imo is whether the devs will ever have the audacity to step on minmaxer toes again. Because that's what I think about when I read that thread-- "This sounds cool but the base of the game doesn't want jobs to be cool".

This gets brought up every time and I have to ask, why would more job complexity step on min-max player's toes? I have only dabbled in optimization when I had fun playing my job but that was the biggest enjoyment I got out of it, optimizing my job gameplay for a given fight because it wasn't on auto pilot. I would assume someone who wants to min-max would like more complexity in their gameplay to actually min-max.

What is optimization now? When to delay the party's 2 minute window because there's downtime soon? Banking your free Edge of Shadow for the next 2-min window? Please, wake me up when there's actually anything interesting to min-max.

The only time I remember optimization actually having any real impact on my gameplay in Endwalker was in P3S as GnB (I assume other jobs with cleave could do the same) and only because I had to slightly adjust my rotation to pad my DPS on the Darkened Fire adds with Double Down.