Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[OgruMogru]

I'm not sure the devs have a vision for jobs beyond being vehicles for encounters, whether that's PvP or Savage.

Imo it's backwards though. The encounters should also be a vehicle for the job's gameplay.

[ForsakenRoe]

Imo it's backwards though. The encounters should also be a vehicle for the job's gameplay.

It's a bit of both really, the jobs are like a lens to view something through, and the encounter is some visually appealing thing to view. Without the view, the lens is pointless, without the lens to see the view clearly, the view can't be fully appreciated. The two have to exist in a balance, and it feels like it's skewed way too far in one direction at the moment

The easiest way to see this is with a thought experiment: if the gameplay of every job (yes even the DPS) were made into 'press 1 over and over (literally one button, no CDs or rotation) until the boss dies, like the RP scenarios in the MSQ', but the encounter complexity was ramped up to compensate, would the game be fun to play?

[Atelier-Bagur]

It's a bit of both really, the jobs are like a lens to view something through, and the encounter is some visually appealing thing to view. Without the view, the lens is pointless, without the lens to see the view clearly, the view can't be fully appreciated. The two have to exist in a balance, and it feels like it's skewed way too far in one direction at the moment

The easiest way to see this is with a thought experiment: if the gameplay of every job (yes even the DPS) were made into 'press 1 over and over (literally one button, no CDs or rotation) until the boss dies, like the RP scenarios in the MSQ', but the encounter complexity was ramped up to compensate, would the game be fun to play?

Well yeah because that better smooths out the experience. If the class was not only hard to play but also combat encounters were also hard then many people would just not have fun with it due to the over complexity over a gameplay design. This is why a game like Street Fighter works so well because the moves and mechanics are very easy to pull off but the complexity comes from how well you use those easy to learn moves in a bout with another skilled player.

So yeah in our case if battle encounters and combat were made more complex then the jobs would theoretically be a lot more satisfying to play because the satisfaction comes from mastering the relatively simple to play job. And no I dont think Savage is the answer to this, I still think the combat design in this case is too obtuse if that makes any sense. The battle engine needs to be reworked and preferrably something much snappier, faster and smoother to play.

[Turtledeluxe]

Well yeah because that better smooths out the experience. If the class was not only hard to play but also combat encounters were also hard then many people would just not have fun with it due to the over complexity over a gameplay design. This is why a game like Street Fighter works so well because the moves and mechanics are very easy to pull off but the complexity comes from how well you use those easy to learn moves in a bout with another skilled player.

So yeah in our case if battle encounters and combat were made more complex then the jobs would theoretically be a lot more satisfying to play because the satisfaction comes from mastering the relatively simple to play job. And no I dont think Savage is the answer to this, I still think the combat design in this case is too obtuse if that makes any sense. The battle engine needs to be reworked and preferrably something much snappier, faster and smoother to play.

I don't think anyone wants jobs to be overly difficult but rather have more engaging rotations. XIV is not a fighting game, it's an MMO based on a character and job driven IP where roles and team strategy are generally important. Jobs and roles can be smooth without minmaxing their button presses into harmonious oblivion. Fights can be done without two minute metas hand holding you toward a generic zerg burst.

Also the fact that content can't be engaging unless you go from 10 to 100 difficulty wise in an outdated framework is another problem to add to the list imo.

[Lailani_Fey]

I can't emphasise enough how much I dislike mit checks. Regardless if it's P12S or DSR, those mit checks make you feel utterly helpless as Pure Healer. It is one thing to make content more difficult or supporting coordination within the group but it is another to strip a role of their power and self-sufficiency. If instead of mit checks they made bosses use skills that requried coordinated actions to cancel out, like multiple interrupts, this would feel completely different.

[Remember_The_Name]

The two have to exist in a balance, and it feels like it's skewed way too far in one direction at the moment

Absolutely.
When I was watching videos with retrospective of jobs in previous expansions, I understood that jobs had more complexity and depth. While not all implications were perfect (TP for example and much more), it was an interesting puzzle to solve even when doing HW and SB duties. And, while the encounters themselves were not that loaded when comparing to EW and ShB, such job complexity was balancing out lack of mechanics.

Yes, there was some jank, there were problems with aligning burst windows, tank stance dancing, freaking Cleric Stance, yadda-yadda. But figuring out the optimal way even through mentioned problems gave players abilty to express their mastery over the job and a sense of fulfilment when achieving the desired result! And the roughest edges could've been polished into a better version anyway.

But CBU3, with their weird shtick of overcorrecting EVERYTHING, decided to pick up the sledgehammer and whack some major mechanics and interactions the F outta the game. Healers took the biggest blow, unfortunately.

Now, with the jobs streamlined and homogenized, they are trying to compensate by making encounters more and more punishing, complex and strict. But it did not worked out that way. Instead, they made Savage into boring body check simulator, where one mistake results in a raid wipe or causes such severe consequences that it's better to run into the wall and start over.

And the satisfaction of playing the job correctly is not there. The rotations are pretty simple (unless you play God's favourite - BLM) and all buffs are perfectly aligned with each other. There is no depth anymore.

[Turtledeluxe]

And the satisfaction of playing the job correctly is not there. The rotations are pretty simple (unless you play God's favourite - BLM) and all buffs are perfectly aligned with each other. There is no depth anymore.

I laughed out loud.

But yeah- it's interesting when people say "well what do you mean when you say the game lacks job identity" or "what are your solutions" when the game's foundation has examples of it even if they weren't perfectly balanced or optimal. It's obvious that this scale of Job vs Encounter engagement has always existed and has simply tipped nearly all the way in the Encounter direction for too many jobs. When people say there are no new solutions-- There's a thread about new job abilities up right now. And I see players talk about their job rotations literally all of the time. The desire is there, the question imo is whether the devs will ever have the audacity to step on minmaxer toes again. Because that's what I think about when I read that thread-- "This sounds cool but the base of the game doesn't want jobs to be cool".

[Absurdity]

The desire is there, the question imo is whether the devs will ever have the audacity to step on minmaxer toes again. Because that's what I think about when I read that thread-- "This sounds cool but the base of the game doesn't want jobs to be cool".

This gets brought up every time and I have to ask, why would more job complexity step on min-max player's toes? I have only dabbled in optimization when I had fun playing my job but that was the biggest enjoyment I got out of it, optimizing my job gameplay for a given fight because it wasn't on auto pilot. I would assume someone who wants to min-max would like more complexity in their gameplay to actually min-max.

What is optimization now? When to delay the party's 2 minute window because there's downtime soon? Banking your free Edge of Shadow for the next 2-min window? Please, wake me up when there's actually anything interesting to min-max.

The only time I remember optimization actually having any real impact on my gameplay in Endwalker was in P3S as GnB (I assume other jobs with cleave could do the same) and only because I had to slightly adjust my rotation to pad my DPS on the Darkened Fire adds with Double Down.

[Turtledeluxe]

This gets brought up every time and I have to ask, why would more job complexity step on min-max player's toes? I have only dabbled in optimization when I had fun playing my job but that was the biggest enjoyment I got out of it, optimizing my job gameplay for a given fight because it wasn't on auto pilot. I would assume someone who wants to min-max would like more complexity in their gameplay to actually min-max.

What is optimization now? When to delay the party's 2 minute window because there's downtime soon? Banking your free Edge of Shadow for the next 2-min window? Please, wake me up when there's actually anything interesting to min-max.

The only time I remember optimization actually having any real impact on my gameplay in Endwalker was in P3S as GnB (I assume other jobs with cleave could do the same) and only because I had to slightly adjust my rotation to pad my DPS on the Darkened Fire adds with Double Down.

Yes but as I said in my previous post-- who are the people calling out for the changes to the jobs and the two minute meta? These are not people who want the game to be more fun-- they want job viability to an extreme degree and easy access to optimal damage output. This is the number one reaction anyone gives when people talk about jobs having more unique identity-- "well in 2.0 no one wanted warrior" etc. Obviously every game needs balance, but I'd argue XIV will not tolerate an ounce of risk out of fear of the 2.0 era or whatever.

And every time they cave to player demands "no one wants my job bc they don't have x", homogeny grows. This is what I said earlier-- original feedback isn't likely when players typically only think of rotations or dps in relation to other jobs that they perceive to be outpacing them.

And what do I mean when I say original feedback? I mean player ideas for rotations or deepening their role in the encounter. Those ideas go largely ignored in favor of steamrolling the jobs.

I live in constant fear that one day they're going to give BLM res or self healing. Pls don't.

[ForteNightshade]

Yes but as I said in my previous post-- who are the people calling out for the changes to the jobs and the two minute meta? These are not people who want the game to be more fun-- they want job viability to an extreme degree and easy access to optimal damage output. This is the number one reaction anyone gives when people talk about jobs having more unique identity-- "well in 2.0 no one wanted warrior" etc. Obviously every game needs balance, but I'd argue XIV will not tolerate an ounce of risk out of fear of the 2.0 era or whatever.

No offense but... you clearly haven't been around those circles. Even min maxers have been complaining about the boring job design and especially the two minute meta. In fact, it's downright reviled because now everything boils down to crit RNG. Didn't Crit, Direct Hit your blade combo? Whelp, sucks for your parse even though it's quite literally identical to your previous runs.

Very few higher end players, be they speed runners, parsers or simply hardcore players who raid log want "job viability to an extreme degree". That is a very common misconception. Do they have their preferences? Naturally. But they'll either play whatever's good or are good enough to overcome job deficiencies, provided they aren't too absurd ala tank balance for early Abyssos or 6.3 TOP in general. The issue is how the dev team has approached balance. You can have job design with healthy amounts of similarity yet still manage to differentiate themselves enough. Melee, for instance, mostly accomplish this. Ninja doesn't play at all like Dragoon nor do either play like Monk. Their far bigger issue is a lack of engaging gameplay outside the two minute window. Which is why you weren't seeing nearly as much criticism towards job homogenization in Shadowbringers despite it existing there too.

So why is the dev team balancing this way? If I were to hazard a guess. It's significantly easier when everything is largely similar, And with soon to be 21 jobs, the already understaffed design department simply has reached capacity. Sebazy has talked about it at length but for cliffnotes sake, we've essentially have the save 5-6 people working on job design since ARR. Couple that with the overemphasis on accessibility the last two expansions and you start to see why jobs have been dumbed down. They're easier to balance and more casual players can pick them up without much thought.

The reality is a game that wants every job to be viable at the highest level will always have some degree of homogeny. It's unavoidable. What is frustrating this expansion is despite placing so much emphasis on making jobs easier, we've seen some of the worst balancing decisions since Heavensward. Which leads me to believe it's a lack of creativity being the biggest culprit.