[RANT] Dearest Sage Mains

[AmiableApkallu]

I know your shields are better than mine. It overwrites my critical Adloquiums any time. But let it be known that I have a 90-second cooldown that spreads my Galvanize to the rest of my party which is getting wasted every single time you overwrite my shields. ... Your greed has costed us a lot of unnecessary healing in our alliance party.

An Alliance Raid where Deployment Tactics has a 90s cooldown. In other words, Aglaia/Euphrosyne/Thaleia. What on earth is happening with your party where you think you actually need to spread a crit Adlo in the first place?

Seriously, it's Duty Finder content. Healers step on each other's toes all the time. It's an occupational hazard. See also: Every healer with a regen whose co-healer couldn't wait for that regen to finish ticking. Or every AST whose co-healer couldn't wait for Earthly Star to explode. Or every WHM/SGE pair that shares a brain cell and uses Lilybell and Panhaima at the same time. Etc. Etc.

[Rongway]

Even if the difference between your weaker shield and the more powerful shield it replaced isn't going to make a difference to survival, that still leaves the waste of the entire other shield, all so you can, what, get back a portion of the GCD cost for having applied the shield that reduced your allies' shielding?

Again, downtime. Downtime GCDs spent on shields do not matter.

[Doozer]

The way people react to being asked to consider other party members seems to be universal, huh. Whether you're as SCH asking SGE's to not overwrite big shields, a healer asking a SMN/RDM to not instantly raise someone the second they fall when the healers are fully capable of doing it, etc., people get real uppity about their own self-importance. Whether you demand it or ask very nicely (even with please and thank you), people get mad real quick. Funny.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The way I play my SCH when I see SGEs is to gauge how they react to my first spreadlo prior to pulling first boss. I.e. Kitchen sink that Illumination + Protraction + Recitation + Consolation (remember to 'Away' to resummon) then spreadlo before the pull happens. If they somehow still manage to miss that big fat thick shielding in an entire party list during prepull prep by E.Prog'ing the party, then I don't know what else I can do to make them notice---I would straight up pretend Succor & Adlo do not exist in my hotbar for the rest of the duty. Which is totally fine for the most part because those same SGE who happily overwrite shields tend to be the ones who overheals. Sometimes just letting my fairy Embrace is enough to supplement the remainder needed healing. If not, then I know I still have wealth of Whispering Dawn, Blessing, Union, Seraph, Recitation, and god forbid AF heals to assist if they eat dirt for whatever reason. Emergency Tactic also exist if Succor/Adlo usage is inevitable but something has to be going extremely wrong to even reach that point...

What about my main tank & SGEs from other alliances? Why do I even need to shield my tank when Meleewalker had already made all tanks partially invincible that they have to be running with 8 tiger cookies to be in any threat in normal contents?

[rawker]

An Alliance Raid where Deployment Tactics has a 90s cooldown. In other words, Aglaia/Euphrosyne/Thaleia. What on earth is happening with your party where you think you actually need to spread a crit Adlo in the first place?

Seriously, it's Duty Finder content. Healers step on each other's toes all the time. It's an occupational hazard. See also: Every healer with a regen whose co-healer couldn't wait for that regen to finish ticking. Or every AST whose co-healer couldn't wait for Earthly Star to explode. Or every WHM/SGE pair that shares a brain cell and uses Lilybell and Panhaima at the same time. Etc. Etc.

Overwriting regen, despite also a terrible thing to do, isn't as bad as overwriting shields, specifically a shield that requires you to stay put to cast (use a cooldown to make it instant), then use cooldowns to force a guaranteed crit and a more potent one only to get replaced by a trolly SGE from another alliance and just tell you, "I need my Addersting stacks", not only is annoying but also ruins you co-healers rotation when they've expected you that you already placed a shield to your team for all the raid wide damages. Several buttons to press to get the desired output only to get ruined by 2 button presses. I can see that your main class is also SCH so I take that you know how it feels. It just seems that we have a different approach to addressing it.

Finally, saying that it happens all the time, while true, it shouldn't give you to excuse to do it intentionally. I would understand if it was done by accident but the fact in this situation is that the other player is deliberately, and without remorse, ruining another's experience is something that needs to be called out.

SE needs to ensure that a buff cannot simply get overwritten by another.. Probably implement a weighing system attached to a current buff. If a certain buff, in this case Galvanize has been placed using Protraction, Fey Illumination, and Excogitation, it will have a higher weight than a simple Eukrasian Prognosis. and in turn will not overwrite it.

[Rongway]

Whether you're as SCH asking SGE's to not overwrite big shields, a healer asking a SMN/RDM to not instantly raise someone the second they fall when the healers are fully capable of doing it

Raise is a bad example. The healers definitely should be first to throw out raises because they lose less from casting raise than SMN and RDM do. Yes, let the healers do it.
Asking sage not to overwrite shields is an unnecessary ask if we're talking about downtime, and what competent sage main is wasting GCDs overshielding during uptime? There's a different conversation to be had with those folks.

Overwriting regen, despite also a terrible thing to do, isn't as bad as overwriting shields

Just a note, Apkallu wasn't talking about overwriting regens; they were talking about someone putting up a regen and then the other healer immediately topping everyone off with an instant heal instead of letting the regen do its work.

SE needs to ensure that a buff cannot simply get overwritten by another.. Probably implement a weighing system attached to a current buff. If a certain buff, in this case Galvanize has been placed using Protraction, Fey Illumination, and Excogitation, it will have a higher weight than a simple Eukrasian Prognosis. and in turn will not overwrite it.

On at least this much we mostly agree: Eukrasian Prognosis should have a lower priority than Galvanize...for everyone but the sage, because the only E.Prognosis shield that gives sage a stack is the one on themself. E.Prognosis should only overwrite a Galvanize on the casting sage. While we're at it, E.Prognosis should also overwrite another sage's shields for the casting sage only.

However, in the vast majority of situations, it's fine for E.Diagnosis to overwrite any Galvanize--doing so won't cost anyone any additional GCDs or cooldowns to make up for the overwritten eHp in casual content.

[ZiraZ]

Stop pointless shielding in alliance raids
fixed

[Supersnow845]

Stop pointless shielding in alliance raids
fixed

Exactly this, the amount of times people yell at me for not healing in alliance raids when they’ve cast medica 2 4 times after a raidwide that did 20% of our HP is too damn high

Otherwise as to the core point this could easily be fixed by making succor and adlo different buffs, say we left adlo as giving galvanise and succor now gets “succorise”, galvanise can be given priority over all other GCD shields, succorise can maintain the current system of whichever is cast second/is the stronger shield

That way you can’t override spreadlo with e prognosis but you can generate addersting if the SCH decides to just use succor over spreading adlo

[rawker]

Just a note, Apkallu wasn't talking about overwriting regens; they were talking about someone putting up a regen and then the other healer immediately topping everyone off with an instant heal instead of letting the regen do its work.

I see. This case doesn't bother me much. To be more precise, topping off the party when an AoE regen is on-going and sufficient while there are no mechanics taking place that would require burst healing is very forgivable. Sure it still wasted regen due to overhealing but this would've been an issue if it were the old times where overhealing generated extra enmity and tank enmity generation is not the same as we have currently.

Though we have an agreement with the overwriting so no more arguments from me.

[Astrahime]

Just remove Addersting, remove Toxikon's AoE component, and decrease Toxikon's damage slightly.

Problem solved. Sages don't need to spend 900 MP and then wait for a shield to break to do something that Scholar does for just 400 MP.

Better yet, nerf shield potencies and allow both SGE and SCH shields to stack together.