Luckybancho census shows criterion savage was a complete and utter failure

[Shougun]

Which is why I liked the idea of Bozja's duels (even if they basically gave you no rewards besides bragging rights), the implementation on how you access them was just atrocious...I'm noticing a pattern here.

Bozja duels were an interesting idea. I wish FFXIV/SE had some better phasing technology, it could be cool if anyone and everyone who wanted to duel while everyone who wanted to watch or was also dueling themselves were participants for other players.

I'm not sure what it is, but they have had a few neat ideas that then felt like they didn't get the support they needed whether that was given more time, resources, or alternatively told to 'go back and cook some more'.. I'm not sure. My thought is Yoshida, or someone of planning positional power, is extremely effective at organizing human and game systems but it's so structured and so rigid that it has troubles with more organic situations. It's my theory at least on why FFXIV has pretty bad roleplay gameplay (gameplay that helps you roleplay a role, how you rarely see any ideas that add flare for flare sake and how jobs are more likely to be similar than dissimilar- this doesn't always mean a bad thing to be fair). I'm personally not on the doom is neigh wagon, but I do feel occasionally like 'wow that was a great, or at least interesting, idea that didn't seem to stick the landing'. I can appreciate other people expressing their concerns when done in a way that you can understand 'what' that concern is, regardless of if it is associated to doom or not lol.

Interestingly I do feel they tried a few 'different' ideas in this expansion but for whatever reason just had issues with the land. For example, it didn't seem there really was a need for savage + content, and it would have been better to be normal + (basically 'hard mode' between normal and savage), and then the rewards and some systems caused issues with replayability on top of that. Or with Island Sanctuary, while I personally really enjoy hanging out in my Island, I feel it was strange they went so hard on the excel side of the gameplay.. like super hard. I wish they had went to gamify other systems better, add gold saucer mini game to catching, create special gathering effects that mixed up your gathering, dynamic events and quests, etc.. with 'some' excelification not 'all of it'. Etc.

My concern is that negative feedback isn't taken with nuance of sticking interesting ideas better, but "don't try new things, just go back to the old formula".

Any content that you can't queue for in DF and have a reasonable expectation of both getting a group and clearing will be ignored by most of the player base.

I'm definitely, willfully, in that category. I will not queue for savage content, anymore (used to try it long ago), after many many hours of wasted time because people couldn't bother to learn the strat or play their job. Besides feeling like a waste of time, and not fun, it also created outside of game issues where I couldn't predict how long the content was going to be so I couldn't plan around other life responsibilities or desires (because who knows if it's going to be 10 minutes or 85 minutes). I can create a PF, I'm aware, and I encourage others to do that if they want to do that content, for better chance, but I don't want to wait around, at all, I do not like the lobby content vibe, and am probably jaded about it given FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 'begging for parties' (and so I just don't even 'like' using PF unless it's emergent content, like hunts, or almost full already). I am certainly at the point where if it isn't a certain level of convenience (like DF) and likely to accomplish them within a reasonable time frame then I'm probably not going to partake at all (unless I can solo it, which is why I think it would be cool if future criterion-like content has dynamic scaling to include solo and may act as a Delve equivalent as I quite liked that idea when I saw the presentation).

[Absurdity]

I'm not sure what it is, but they have had a few neat ideas that then felt like they didn't get the support they needed whether that was given more time, resources, or alternatively told to 'go back and cook some more'.. I'm not sure. My thought is Yoshida, or someone of planning positional power, is extremely effective at organizing human and game systems but it's so structured and so rigid that it has troubles with more organic situations. It's my theory at least on why FFXIV has pretty bad roleplay gameplay (gameplay that helps you roleplay a role, how you rarely see any ideas that add flare for flare sake and how jobs are more likely to be similar than dissimilar- this doesn't always mean a bad thing to be fair). I'm personally not on the doom is neigh wagon, but I do feel occasionally like 'wow that was a great, or at least interesting, idea that didn't seem to stick the landing'. I can appreciate other people expressing their concerns when done in a way that you can understand 'what' that concern is, regardless of if it is associated to doom or not lol.

This has unfortunately been the case for a lot of systems for basically as long as ARR. I got into chocobo racing earlier this year because I wanted the mask and found one of the most in-depth systems in chocobo breeding that I've seen in the game so far. I had a lot of fun with the races, seeing the progression of my chocobo with each level and then trying to create an even stronger one.
But this side content has been left abandoned for what, 8 years now? The controls are clunky and there are only 3 race tracks so repetition sets in very quickly. They had a great piece of content there and nobody bothered to support it further than the initial release.

Interestingly I do feel they tried a few 'different' ideas in this expansion but for whatever reason just had issues with the land. For example, it didn't seem there really was a need for savage + content, and it would have been better to be normal + (basically 'hard mode' between normal and savage), and then the rewards and some systems caused issues with replayability on top of that. Or with Island Sanctuary, while I personally really enjoy hanging out in my Island, I feel it was strange they went so hard on the excel side of the gameplay.. like super hard. I wish they had went to gamify other systems better, add gold saucer mini game to catching, create special gathering effects that mixed up your gathering, dynamic events and quests, etc.. with 'some' excelification not 'all of it'. Etc.

This is what I was hoping to get from Criterion dungeons, an actual dungeon delving experience that I could do with 3 friends and which had a bit more teeth than the sleepwalking simulator that is expert roulette. I didn't want another savage fight, I didn't want what amounts to a boss rush, I can just do weekly raid reclears for that.
So for me Criterion fell flat on it's face immediately even before I saw the complete lack of good rewards, because it failed to do a single thing I wanted from "harder dungeons". It didn't give me harder dungeons, it gave me 3 extreme trials but harder, and I don't think I'm the only one who felt disappointed with that.

My concern is that negative feedback isn't taken with nuance of sticking interesting ideas better, but "don't try new things, just go back to the old formula".

This is also a concern of mine, because if CBU3 only looks at sterile data (how many people tried the content and how many cleared it) then their obvious conclusion is that nobody wants the new experimental content.
But even the tried and true content has suffered in Endwalker. Since all dungeons and normal trials are tied to MSQ progression they have been completely de-fanged, because even people who are just here for the cutscenes need to be able to complete it.

[Mcg55ss]

https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...nsus_12242023/

there's nothing really to take away from here that hasn't already been said i just find it funny how if you removed crit savage overnight practically no one would notice. there's just no way they're satisfied with that, right?

The thing I'll say is the dungeon themselves aren't a failure, because I don't have a static and my server is practically dead so Savage really is a no go unless I be like every other person and transfer to aether so it's the only content I can say hardwise I've done. The fights are really fun and they're really a good challenge and have a lot of personal responsibility so I'm having a blast in them doing them with my girlfriend who is a brand new MMO tank my best friend and another FC member. The sad part is there's no real incentive to repeatedly do them. There's no gearing except the weapon in alola, the mounts is ok but not great, and who cares about the title. I would like personally normal to drop a gear set (no I don't know what item level you would make it maybe 655 for the first two bosses and then the last boss a 660 but idk) then Savage to me I don't care about item level but if you made a really good glamor reward for completing it I think that would be fine in my opinion.

[Mcg55ss]

https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...nsus_12242023/

there's nothing really to take away from here that hasn't already been said i just find it funny how if you removed crit savage overnight practically no one would notice. there's just no way they're satisfied with that, right?

Or on the reward thing if they made a vault system like world of Warcraft for like bosses killed like if you kill one boss would be like one gate two bosses would be two and you got gear through that once a week but I don't know

[Troxbark]

Why are they irrelevant? What items should they have implemented according to you?

Like I said, I think its hard getting into it. You basically cant play 2 of those criterion dungeons unless you have cleared recent savage. I think people will do it later more, when gear wont matter.

Even if "gear doesn't matter", savage criterion is still extremely punishing. High-end raiders don't care about glam and novelty items and casual players won't engage with high-end content.

They need to have savage equivalent gear or similar to bring in the raid crowd and the casual crowd is just a lost cause because the content simply isn't designed for them. If all the loot pool is going to offer is vanity garbage then the difficulty needs to be toned down to not require near BIS so more casual players can clear it.

[Saraide]

Even if "gear doesn't matter", savage criterion is still extremely punishing. High-end raiders don't care about glam and novelty items and casual players won't engage with high-end content.

Ultimate gives glam rewards.

[Post]

What's dumb is you can't JUST do savage crit, even if you have 3 friends that want to. You need all the raid gear either from savage 8 player raids or waiting weeks for times, hunts and 24 man catch up tokens.

I actually enjoyed the hell out of healing for once in Savage crit just cuz parts of it were different. Tank damage was very high on trash and some bosses. And trash was way more interesting than it normally is, and trash will always present different problems, solutions and gameplay than their boss design will, especially now that we won't ever see the likes of t4, a2 or even o3/7 ever again

Edit: Also, since it's come up on this page, JP servers regularly manage to DF savage weekly. This is because they adapt easy ways to communicate strategy (macros), and they treat DF more seriously than PF, using PF to let others know you're practicing and learning or not perfect yet, and DF as the 'we can do it in one or two attempts'. Maybe DT's built in strategy sharing thing will finally get standing around in waymarks or linking to videos to fall out of favor slightly, or at least share some PF real estate.

Culture is the only thing separating how effective it is; I feel like a lot of things that seem like dumb ideas on NA side work just fine if the players approach it properly (JP side). I'm not saying we're wrong for sucking or using the systems in ways the developers weren't expecting, just that they seem to routinely be unable to predict what players will do with their systems, especially foreign ones.

[Somnolence]

Ultimate gives glam rewards.

But do ultimate raiders do them for rewards primarily?

How many extra people did Abysos savage just because it had glowy weapons? If I recall Asphodelos still has higher clear rate, so if it did have any effect it was for more casual players that did it latter and maybe with echo.

I bet for ultimates its similar, people that are more glamour oriented do them when they are easier/no longer current.

Problem with criterion savage they will never become as easy as UCOB/UWU/TEA as they are more punishing and 4 man places higher individual responsibility so weaker players cannot get carried as easily if at all.

[Atelier-Bagur]

But do ultimate raiders do them for rewards primarily?

How many extra people did Abysos savage just because it had glowy weapons? If I recall Asphodelos still has higher clear rate, so if it did have any effect it was for more casual players that did it latter and maybe with echo.

I bet for ultimates its similar, people that are more glamour oriented do them when they are easier/no longer current.

Problem with criterion savage they will never become as easy as UCOB/UWU/TEA as they are more punishing and 4 man places higher individual responsibility so weaker players cannot get carried as easily if at all.

Ultimates are the lone exception of the rule but usually people do things for physical rewards.

[ShadowNyx3]

I have farmed every criterion for the mounts with my group but criterion savage just doesnt seem appealing to us. A no-death run to me should be something that is itself just an achievement rather than entire instance. Criterion savage tries so hard to be ultimate level combat but brings non of the innovations. It's some of the most punishing content ever but just tacked on to an existing raid. It could have been its own thing. Why isnt criterion savage an extended fight against the secret variant boss? uwu isnt just minstrels ballad: ultima's bane but with extra stats and no-death, why does criterion savage have to be?

This is a great suggestion and something I have thought myself since doing Sil'dih and having no desire to clear the other savages. But alas, the only thing that people can come up with in discussions about Criterion Savage is the same old argument of rewards for completing it.

I think it's pretty clear from seeing no significant spike in Aloalo clear rate compared to Rokkon that people just don't care about this content as its currently designed and even adding a more desirable reward for completing it isn't going to make people flock to what is a completely phoned-in piece of content.