(EW Spoilers) Tales from the Dawn #5 - Days Gone By, Days Yet to Come

[Lunaxia]

I'm still going through the EE Vol.3, but some interesting points related to this discussion are as follows:.

In spite of everything else, thanks for sharing this. It's nice to get some fresh, genuine lore behind the Ancients for a change - and moreso when you get that happy little pang of satisfaction when one of your personal headcanons pans out! Right from when 5.0 dropped, I always saw Azem's defection as an out-and-out condemnation of the initial Summoning and the sacrifices involved, and it's really cool to get that confirmed. Even without reading between the lines of Emet's behaviour, it seemed like such an obvious WoL thing to do... though it makes subsequent events truly all the more frustrating. They really did let go of a lot of what was innate to the WoL as a character to make Endwalker work, and that'll always be a huge disappointment for me. Ah, well.

That pre-existing creation magicks began warping first is also interesting, and paints a much better picture of why they must have been overwhelmed so quickly when they had a greater degree of control over creating monstrosities than mortals did/ do. The keening noise to me seems like one of those plot points that existed pre-Meteion that they've tried to rope in to the main story since, although it's not the clumsiest retcon they've done. I can never shake the feeling that something was actually intended to be going on with the lifestream initially, but that's that, I suppose.

And the point about the schism just makes me... sad, really. Imagining the panic, the fear, the insecurity, and everything unravelling as everyone struggled to decide what to do; the way it broke not only their people but the bond between them. It was such a tragedy, and it's unfortunate how often that gets skated over in favour of the "the Ancients were bad/ cruel/ callous and had it coming to 'em!" narrative. Amidst the hailstorm of Garden of Eden metaphors and contrived Buddhism philosophical references and blatant fanservice they lost so much of the humanity they'd previously been permitted as characters, and it's one of the biggest pitfalls of EW's writing, to be honest.

Also, (not as a jab to anyone but in general) the Nibirun inference will never be the justification the writers clearly hope it to be.

[reginleif-]

[...]I have been an editor at times, and I can tell you, this sentence is A-OK.

I am a certified editor, last retrained in 2021 :) This doesn't make me invariably right, of course. On the contrary, listening to the different opinions is vital for growth, even if the parties do not agree. (Not gonna lie, it not always is a pleasure for self-esteem.)

I think there was also a Q&A (at the Korean FanFest...?) where they elaborated a bit on the relative ages of Elidibus, Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, Venat, and Lahabrea specifically.

It was something like... […]
Emet & Hyth - adults, same age

Oh. I was about to bring the same interview, it's nice to see it here already. What it said about Hyth more precisely: “Hythlodaeus: The same age as Emet-Selch (or so he claims…)” This looked to me like Hyth is hiding his age, and he is actually older or younger.

But the story we discuss here says that Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus are childhood friends. This assumes them being around the same age. If so, there seems to be nothing to hide, now Hyth is simply an adult. So why a remark was added to his age? If there are any thoughts, I would listen.

The interview on this forum: Ancient lore from Korean liveletter Q&A

P.S. I'm looking forward to the EE3 thread. My copy is on the way and will be on the way until 2024.

[Cleretic]

and moreso when you get that happy little pang of satisfaction when one of your personal headcanons pans out! Right from when 5.0 dropped, I always saw Azem's defection as an out-and-out condemnation of the initial Summoning and the sacrifices involved, and it's really cool to get that confirmed.

I would argue this isn't 'confirmation of headcanon', so much as 'confirmation of reading comprehension and interpretation'; very little of what Lyth just posted (or what I've seen said by others elsewhere on the subject of the Ancients) is actually new information, so much as confirmation of what we were already told, in a more neutral, 'word of god' context. Specifically I think that piece came from an NPC in Fake Amaurot, which is sort of a perfect example of the difficulties with imperfect in-universe sources; it's near impossible to read Fake Amaurot for any sort of objective truth, to the point where even the characters in the story want a second opinion. And a lot of the story of the Ancients has similar issues: we've been hearing facts that clearly have some level of objective truth, from sources that have known subjective bias, and we've been left to try to piece that all together. So good job figuring that part out, but that's a different skillset than coming up with consistent headcanons.

And none of that's necessarily a negative, I find it to be the most important part of the Encyclopedia Eorzea books: the main thing I'm excited about is actually getting all the viera and hrothgar information in one easily-referenced place, rather than scattered in a bunch of weird corners.

[Lunaxia]

I would argue this isn't 'confirmation of headcanon', so much as 'confirmation of reading comprehension and interpretation'

Half of this thread is people literally sharing their own various interpretations of what Azem was thinking and feeling during the Final Days saga, including you, and arguing over it. So not only is this, as always, marvellously patronising, it's also completely wrong, as clearly not everyone saw it that way.

"Confirmation of interpretation" lol, what on earth do you think a headcanon is?

very little of what Lyth just posted (or what I've seen said by others elsewhere on the subject of the Ancients) is actually new information

All we got from Amaurot was "hey, there were Fourteen, now there are Thirteen!", then "defying fate in their own way" from the pointless side story so as not to ruffle too many feathers for the happy ending. Official confirmation that they publicly disagreed with the Convocation and went toe-to-toe with them on the grounds of the sacrifices and defecting once they were shut down is absolutely notable brand new information that also significantly informs Azem as a character.

[Cleretic]

Half of this thread is people literally sharing their own various interpretations of what Azem was thinking and feeling during the Final Days saga, including you, and arguing over it. So not only is this, as always, marvellously patronising, it's also completely wrong, as clearly not everyone saw it that way.

"Confirmation of interpretation" lol, what on earth do you think a headcanon is?

I'm not being patronizing, I'm literally complimenting you, and just highlighting that it's a different skillset than you were claiming. You found the correct piece of evidence to read as fact, when none of the rest of us did, including me: good job, genuinely! I'm quite confident that the person who said something very close to this was an NPC in Fake Amaurot, but that's gonna be hard to check given that it could be an idle NPC, an MSQ-relevant character, a yellow-quester, or even an idle NPC that only says that during a certain MSQ step.

And my interpretation of 'headcanon', as well as I believe most people's, is 'this is what I call true to me with little to no evidence'. If you like yours being more 'canon-plausible' than others do, that's more power to you, but I very much doubt that any of us would argue it's secretly canon that Azem was brother to Hyth, or Elidibus' lover, or has the temperament of Fray in my least favorite Dark Knight quest. It's just a fun little thought exercise and way to flesh out quiet parts of the story; I wasn't arguing about it at all, except to defend that mine does, in fact, fit into the box we've been given.

[Lunaxia]

I'm not being patronizing, I'm literally complimenting you, and just highlighting that it's a different skillset than you were claiming.

If that was your intent, the "reading comprehension" line coupled with "we didn't actually learn anything new" doesn't come off well, and underlying all of this is that your basis for that judgement isn't even correct. Nowhere is any of this said, and Amaurot in particular is incredibly shadowy and vague about what actually happened with Azem and the Convocation. Just one NPC makes a comment, suggesting a seat is soon to become vacant, but they struggle to believe it as more than a rumour, and the only other source we have is of course Hythlodaeus confirming it with his singular "Convocation of Thirteen" line. And that's it. Nothing relating to any displays of disapproval, conflict, issues with the initial sacrifices or literally anything else about Azem and why they left is given away - if anything, it's depicted as more of a quiet, unannounced departure or withdrawal and you're left to draw your own conclusions about the character in just about every respect, so any extra details is a form of headcanon. If it were said, hours upon hours spent in these forums might feasibly have been saved, lol... and the past few pages of this discussion would not exist, which is what I was saying earlier.

If I've truly jumped the gun then I'll admit it, but I just find it weird to set out to make that distinction to begin with, when all I was doing was remarking I was pleasantly surprised a headcanon I'd long harboured turned out the way it did. I was never claiming any skillset, nor do I see why headcanons would even require them - at that point, it's leaning into theory-crafting - and it's difficult to spot a supposed compliment when it simultaneously undermines what you're saying.