(EW Spoilers) Tales from the Dawn #5 - Days Gone By, Days Yet to Come

[Zero-ELEC]

Sorry betraying and wiping out your own race requires malice hate or spite. In almost any other game Venat would be a monster for choice to murder her world, honestly I find her writing evil.

Ah, my mistake, I thought we were having a serious conversation. I'll stop derailing this thread. Have a good one!

[SannaR]

Wild idea I had earlier today. What if Azem's plan that would take longer to develop than it would to do Zodiark was to find a way to cut off a person's ability to use creation magics. After all you can't accidentally make a terminus beast if you can't use creation magics. And then there would be no reason to sacrifice people for a summoning.

[SannaR]

That might help with the monster problem, but there would still be fire raining from the sky. :P

I'm not sure if the star shower was an actual physical thing as we never get told of people finding the various meteorites that might have made it to the ground. For all we know there could have been a meteor shower happening coincidentally at the same time as the original Final Days. Or it could have all been illusionary and only there to help spread the fear. Look at how all other media and even some of our own early history see meteorite showers as ill omens. Or on the rare occasion a good one. Though who knows if this is brought up in the newest encyclopedia that are landing on people's doorsteps or mail boxes. Or at an outdoor building cause the delivery truck person was too assed to get it to the obvious porch.

[MikkoAkure]

I'm not sure if the star shower was an actual physical thing as we never get told of people finding the various meteorites that might have made it to the ground. For all we know there could have been a meteor shower happening coincidentally at the same time as the original Final Days. Or it could have all been illusionary and only there to help spread the fear. Look at how all other media and even some of our own early history see meteorite showers as ill omens. Or on the rare occasion a good one. Though who knows if this is brought up in the newest encyclopedia that are landing on people's doorsteps or mail boxes. Or at an outdoor building cause the delivery truck person was too assed to get it to the obvious porch.

In the Amaurot dungeon, the starfall is more than just a "meteor shower" and you need to dodge the meteors as they fall and explode around you. The city is also crumbling and on fire. I don't know if the starfall was a result of the direct attack from Meteion herself or part of the collective creation magic gone crazy, but it was definitely still a thing that was happening.

I also think that simply stopping creation magic wouldn't really help since the planet was being blasted with dynamis and it was only Zodiark's bubble that stopped it. And just stopping creation magic would've uprooted Ancient society and culture and would've have helped in the long run anyway since Meteion was also hastening the heat death of the universe.

Unless something pops up in the next lore book (which I won't get until tomorrow), I think the simplest answer is that Azem likely died while defending some settlement somewhere and that's why they never responded to Emet-Selch or Venat. It would've been the simplest thing to just respond with "don't do anything crazy, I'm on it" to both of them, especially since Zodiark's first summoning ended the Final Days and by the time of Hydaelyn's summoning, there was no greater danger in the world.

[Enkidoh]

Right, the fire from the sky was certainly destructive, it was obliterating the buildings of Amaurot and set fire to the surrounding landscape, and even in the present day when the Final Days restarts, Vanaspati is set on fire by it, even ruining the local temple. So those flaming meteors are more than just ominous fire and brimstone, it's literal destruction. Eventually, the entire planet would have burned out completely to a lifeless husk.

So merely cutting off the Ancients' creation magics wouldn't solve the problem at all (remember, EW retconned it a little where in ShB Emet said Zodiark's point was to 'rewrite the laws of nature anew' - in other words, to restabilize their creation magic so it wouldn't run out of control, EW revealed Zodiark was actually a 'load bearing boss' designed to shield the planet from Meteion's Dynamis onslaught with a massive veil of aether, to cancel the effect outright.).

Also, seeing as we seem to be doing personal "what was your Azem doing during the Final Days" headcanons: my personal headcanon is that Azem.. was doing what they do best. Fighting back against the Terminus beasts and going around trying to save as many people as they could, by trying to serve as a beacon of hope, even though it was ultimately a doomed effort, they continued to stubbornly fight on, even without the Convocation behind them.

And connected to that, it's what I believe the Amaurot dungeon back in ShB was actually based on - Emet created it based on what he saw Azem doing during the Final Days, fighting on through the city trying to save people. The whole thing was a reconstruction of what you as Azem did on that final day (this is why he browbeats you in the cutscene immedately after completing the dungeon, saying your "performance was underwhelming and I remain unconvinced of your worthiness" - Azem would have more or less tore through the Terminus beasts as if they were paper, and because the WoL and the Scions weren't anywhere near that level, hence they did not meet the lofty yardstick that Azem was. Mind you, Emet was deliberately moving the goalposts anyway, so it would have been a moot point.

Basically, my headcanon ends that Azem continued to put down the Terminus beasts even after Zodiark was summoned, and did so right up to the Sundering, by which they were sundered at that time just like everyone else. That's just my headcanon though so your own may differ and be no less 'right or wrong.'

[Cleretic]

In the Amaurot dungeon, the starfall is more than just a "meteor shower" and you need to dodge the meteors as they fall and explode around you. The city is also crumbling and on fire. I don't know if the starfall was a result of the direct attack from Meteion herself or part of the collective creation magic gone crazy, but it was definitely still a thing that was happening.

We fight monsters cracking out meteor drops themselves in both the Amaurot dungeon and Vanaspati, so it's possible that the beasts themselves are causing those showers, meaning that theoretically cutting off creation magic might actually stop those.

[Lyth]

I'm still going through the EE Vol.3, but some interesting points related to this discussion are as follows:

• The 'keening sound' from the land originated in a place across the sea from Amaurot. This event is what was being discussed in Lv.70 'Debate and Discourse'.
• Pre-existing creation magicks were transformed initially, resulting in the first wave of monstrosities.
• Despite attempting to fight off the transformed creations with conventional magical techniques only, people's terror caused them to produce more transformed creations.
• Amaurot viewed the overseas event initially as more of a curiosity and exciting puzzle, and captured Archaeotania (which you'll remember is the 48-72 hour special reward FATE that spawns in the Tempest).
• Study of Archaeotania resulted in a new technique which allowed someone to expend the aether of their own soul to effectively create a new deity, which was the precursor to modern Summoning.
• The Convocation proposed utilizing this approach to effectively rewrite the laws of nature to reinforce the aetheric currents by summoning a new 'Will of the Star'.
• Azem publicly rejected Zodiark's summoning on the basis of the first round of sacrifices itself. Elidibus overrode the objection and Azem ultimately stepped down.
• Eroding confidence in the remaining Convocation gave rise to an alternate faction, which was significantly larger than just Venat's circle. The Convocation refused to be swayed despite the new schism in their society.
• The Sundering diminished everyone's aetheric power and made humanity mortal, causing them to actually become a part of nature's pre-existing cycle of life and death.
• Nibirun society is strikingly similar to Amaurot, if you hadn't already inferred that.

As an aside, Ronka is really quite interesting, and it sounds like they developed Necromancy.

[Cleretic]

I'm still going through the EE Vol.3, but some interesting points related to this discussion are as follows:

• The 'keening sound' from the land originated in a place across the sea from Amaurot. This event is what was being discussed in Lv.70 'Debate and Discourse'.
• Pre-existing creation magicks were transformed initially, resulting in the first wave of monstrosities.
• Despite attempting to fight off the transformed creations with conventional magical techniques only, people's terror caused them to produce more transformed creations.
• Amaurot viewed the overseas event initially as more of a curiosity and exciting puzzle, and captured Archaeotania (which you'll remember is the 48-72 hour special reward FATE that spawns in the Tempest).
• Study of Archaeotania resulted in a new technique which allowed someone to expend the aether of their own soul to effectively create a new deity, which was the precursor to modern Summoning.
• The Convocation proposed utilizing this approach to effectively rewrite the laws of nature to reinforce the aetheric currents by summoning a new 'Will of the Star'.
• Azem publicly rejected Zodiark's summoning on the basis of the first round of sacrifices itself. Elidibus overrode the objection and Azem ultimately stepped down.
• Eroding confidence in the remaining Convocation gave rise to an alternate faction, which was significantly larger than just Venat's circle. The Convocation refused to be swayed despite the new schism in their society.
• The Sundering diminished everyone's aetheric power and made humanity mortal, causing them to actually become a part of nature's pre-existing cycle of life and death.
• Nibirun society is strikingly similar to Amaurot, if you hadn't already inferred that.

As an aside, Ronka is really quite interesting, and it sounds like they developed Necromancy.

I feel like the EE3 deserves its own thread of findings, although I'd personally prefer it wait until people have mostly gotten their hands on the copies still in transit!

[Lunaxia]

I'm still going through the EE Vol.3, but some interesting points related to this discussion are as follows:.

In spite of everything else, thanks for sharing this. It's nice to get some fresh, genuine lore behind the Ancients for a change - and moreso when you get that happy little pang of satisfaction when one of your personal headcanons pans out! Right from when 5.0 dropped, I always saw Azem's defection as an out-and-out condemnation of the initial Summoning and the sacrifices involved, and it's really cool to get that confirmed. Even without reading between the lines of Emet's behaviour, it seemed like such an obvious WoL thing to do... though it makes subsequent events truly all the more frustrating. They really did let go of a lot of what was innate to the WoL as a character to make Endwalker work, and that'll always be a huge disappointment for me. Ah, well.

That pre-existing creation magicks began warping first is also interesting, and paints a much better picture of why they must have been overwhelmed so quickly when they had a greater degree of control over creating monstrosities than mortals did/ do. The keening noise to me seems like one of those plot points that existed pre-Meteion that they've tried to rope in to the main story since, although it's not the clumsiest retcon they've done. I can never shake the feeling that something was actually intended to be going on with the lifestream initially, but that's that, I suppose.

And the point about the schism just makes me... sad, really. Imagining the panic, the fear, the insecurity, and everything unravelling as everyone struggled to decide what to do; the way it broke not only their people but the bond between them. It was such a tragedy, and it's unfortunate how often that gets skated over in favour of the "the Ancients were bad/ cruel/ callous and had it coming to 'em!" narrative. Amidst the hailstorm of Garden of Eden metaphors and contrived Buddhism philosophical references and blatant fanservice they lost so much of the humanity they'd previously been permitted as characters, and it's one of the biggest pitfalls of EW's writing, to be honest.

Also, (not as a jab to anyone but in general) the Nibirun inference will never be the justification the writers clearly hope it to be.

[reginleif-]

[...]I have been an editor at times, and I can tell you, this sentence is A-OK.

I am a certified editor, last retrained in 2021 :) This doesn't make me invariably right, of course. On the contrary, listening to the different opinions is vital for growth, even if the parties do not agree. (Not gonna lie, it not always is a pleasure for self-esteem.)

I think there was also a Q&A (at the Korean FanFest...?) where they elaborated a bit on the relative ages of Elidibus, Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, Venat, and Lahabrea specifically.

It was something like... […]
Emet & Hyth - adults, same age

Oh. I was about to bring the same interview, it's nice to see it here already. What it said about Hyth more precisely: “Hythlodaeus: The same age as Emet-Selch (or so he claims…)” This looked to me like Hyth is hiding his age, and he is actually older or younger.

But the story we discuss here says that Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus are childhood friends. This assumes them being around the same age. If so, there seems to be nothing to hide, now Hyth is simply an adult. So why a remark was added to his age? If there are any thoughts, I would listen.

The interview on this forum: Ancient lore from Korean liveletter Q&A

P.S. I'm looking forward to the EE3 thread. My copy is on the way and will be on the way until 2024.