(EW Spoilers) Tales from the Dawn #5 - Days Gone By, Days Yet to Come

[Cleretic]

I really can't understand your utter hatred of Ancients, I just don't understand why you've got such twisted head cannons for them

Personally, I don't think you explore a setting with a warm hug. For a setting to be real and interesting to me, it has to have some cracks, some shadows, some skeletons in the closet.

This isn't just 'an Ancient thing': I headcanon my character's First equivalent (because my RP character isn't the WoL so she can have one that's not Ardbert) as a Night's Blessed that defected to Eulmore, and post-Shadowbringers is wracked with a crisis that she gave up only to see that the Blessed were right and Eulmore was run by a monster. And my player character herself is from Ul'dah, which shouldn't need elaboration!

If I'm told to come up with an Azem, I'm not going to write a friendly denizen of a perfect utopia; I'm going to delve into those cracks and shadows. And to me, the most interesting thing about the Ancient world is that it means every creature we've faced (with some rare exceptions) are the product of intelligent design... and that's horrifying. There's a man trying to create an apex predator, and everyone's just okay with it. Someone in the Ancient world created the Hippokampos, someone else created the Proto-Carbuncle who lives in the acidic remains of its own kin (look around the P5 arena sometime). FFXIV's world has sentient bombs, and thanks to the lore of Elpis, that means at least one person wanted that to exist. I don't know what came first in the world of FFXIV, the gazelle that runs of its life or the lion that it's running from, but I know that neither one is the choice of someone who's good and kind to all things.

I don't hate the Ancients. But if all you show me of the Ancients is them being perfect pretty people, I will be bored of them.

Oh I know that, but as we both know how things around this topic normally goes. Folks forget to add the fanfiction part to their takes.

I think it's a combination of both not realizing that the substance they come up with and latch on to isn't universally agreed-on, and also that the tone and direction isn't.

It's hard to take when someone says that, not only that the headcanon about this unknown figure that's true to you isn't true to them, but that their personal view and interpretation of this unknown corner is an entirely different genre of storytelling.

[redheadturk]

I don't think you explore a setting with a warm hug. For a setting to be real and interesting to me, it has to have some cracks, some shadows, some skeletons in the closet.

This isn't just 'an Ancient thing': I headcanon my character's First equivalent (because my RP character isn't the WoL so she can have one that's not Ardbert) as a Night's Blessed that defected to Eulmore, and post-Shadowbringers is wracked with a crisis that she gave up only to see that the Blessed were right and Eulmore was run by a monster. And my player character herself is from Ul'dah, which shouldn't need elaboration!

If I'm told to come up with an Azem, I'm not going to write a friendly denizen of a perfect utopia; I'm going to delve into those cracks and shadows. And to me, the most interesting thing about the Ancient world is that it means every creature we've faced (with some rare exceptions) are the product of intelligent design... and that's horrifying. There's a man trying to create an apex predator, and everyone's just okay with it. Someone in the Ancient world created the Hippokampos, someone else created the Proto-Carbuncle who lives in the acidic remains of its own kin (look around the P5 arena sometime). FFXIV's world has sentient bombs, and thanks to the lore of Elpis, that means at least one person wanted that to exist. I don't know what came first in the world of FFXIV, the gazelle that runs of its life or the lion that it's running from, but I know that neither one is the choice of someone who's good and kind to all things.

I don't hate the Ancients. But if all you show me of the Ancients is them being perfect pretty people, I will be bored of them.

Nowhere did I say perfect. But I do think they were good people. And I do not find the idea of experimenting with creating predators horrifying at all. Predators and prey are both necessary parts of a smoothly running ecosystem. Also, I for one want to explored worlds that I would want to live in, and I for one would love to live on Unsundered Eitherys. I do not find worlds that would be pleasant places to live boring at all. Now, are there cracks? Of course, no world is perfect, not even especially not even, our own. But would be a good place to live? [Post scarcity, caring people?] Damn skippy it would be. And I want more of it.

[Cleretic]

Nowhere did I say perfect. But I do think they were good people. And I do not find the idea of experimenting with creating predators horrifying at all. Predators and prey are both necessary parts of a smoothly running ecosystem. Also, I for one want to explored worlds that I would want to live in, and I for one would love to live on Unsundered Eitherys. I do not find worlds that would be pleasant places to live boring at all. Now, are there cracks? Of course, no world is perfect, not even especially not even, our own. But would be a good place to live? [Post scarcity, caring people?] Damn skippy it would be. And I want more of it.

And you've been given more of that, which I'm sure is good for you.

But don't call me immature or twisted for wanting something else.

[Zero-ELEC]

I really hate the trauma makes you a better person trope that EW pushes really hard, especially as the people it breaks then get vilified. It's a really twisted plot point

That is a very uncharitable reading of Endwalker. At least, that's not how I interpreted it. What Endwalker has to say about trauma is that, if trauma is inevitable, and it often is because living is inherently traumatic in many ways, it is inevitable that one must navigate through it and beyond that trauma as best they can. People are not inherently better for going through trauma. Matsya isn't a better person for almost turning into a terminus beast and succumbing to despair, barely coping with the help of his religion. He still is, despite that trauma. That's all Endwalker has to say. That trauma is not the end, it's just another step in life. Something that can knock you down, but you can get up again from.

The game never vilifies people for breaking under trauma, either. Fandaniel/Hermes gets continued pathos about his views and his depression. The Blasphemies are never derided for giving in to despair. And Hades gets a whole section bringing him back, showing his point of view, based on him breaking under trauma, is not less valid because of it's origin or because Venat's hail mary plan worked in the end.

The closest I can see as the game's story saying anything nearly negative about people that suffered from trauma is the ancients, who are never vilified for their trauma. The ancients as a people get stuck in what the game frames as unhealthy behaviours because of trauma and they get forcibly pushed out of them (in a terrible terrible no good way because the ancients are inherently so powerful that they can impose their will over nature in such a way that is inhuman. This applies to Hermes, Venat and Hades alike. Think of it like a godly being staging an intervention.) The pain that the ancients felt is never minimized or made lesser. Them being stuck in unhealthy patterns and being forced out of them is not them being vilified, but someone within the same people that forces all of them to move on, in a way that causes terrible trauma for generations.

But the point is moving on and keeping on living is the only way to stay healthy, but not being healthy is not something to be vilified for at all. This is exemplified in both the Loporrit and Omicron quests that serve as a coda for the themes of the expansion, with the Loporrit quests being about people finding new purposes in life after their calling turned out to be a bust; while the Omicron quests are about what can let you live after trauma, the little things, the small pleasures, living in community, caring for others, etc.

Endalker's themes aren't exactly complex, but they're pretty well defined, and I would not say they fit that description.

[jameseoakes]

The game never vilifies people for breaking under trauma, either. Fandaniel/Hermes gets continued pathos about his views and his depression. The Blasphemies are never derided for giving in to despair. And Hades gets a whole section bringing him back, showing his point of view, based on him breaking under trauma, is not less valid because of it's origin or because Venat's hail mary plan worked in the end.

The closest I can see as the game's story saying anything nearly negative about people that suffered from trauma is the ancients, who are never vilified for their trauma. The ancients as a people get stuck in what the game frames as unhealthy behaviours because of trauma and they get forcibly pushed out of them (in a terrible terrible no good way because the ancients are inherently so powerful that they can impose their will over nature in such a way that is inhuman. This applies to Hermes, Venat and Hades alike. Think of it like a godly being staging an intervention.) The pain that the ancients felt is never minimized or made lesser. Them being stuck in unhealthy patterns and being forced out of them is not them being vilified, but someone within the same people that forces all of them to move on, in a way that causes terrible trauma for generations.

Honestly my reading if Endwalker was quite different from yours, I've had so many people of these forums tell me the ancients deserved to have exterminated as they could cope with trauma in the correct way and that Venat had to remake the world to be one of constant suffering to forge better people I'd say that's rather judgemental on people who break under the trauma especially after Venats vile hate spitelaiden speach when she pass judgement on the ancients and makes herself God. Also a story were depressed people turn into monsters and murder everyone around them seems pretty spitefully judgemental to me on people not coping with Trauma is the correct way.

[jameseoakes]

And you've been given more of that, which I'm sure is good for you.

But don't call me immature or twisted for wanting something else.

You do come off rather immature for shouting at people for liking the wrong characters and then push you really spiteful head cannons on the lore forums to demonise those characters

[redheadturk]

The closest I can see as the game's story saying anything nearly negative about people that suffered from trauma is the ancients, who are never vilified for their trauma. The ancients as a people get stuck in what the game frames as unhealthy behaviours because of trauma and they get forcibly pushed out of them (in a terrible terrible no good way because the ancients are inherently so powerful that they can impose their will over nature in such a way that is inhuman. This applies to Hermes, Venat and Hades alike. Think of it like a godly being staging an intervention.) The pain that the ancients felt is never minimized or made lesser. Them being stuck in unhealthy patterns and being forced out of them is not them being vilified, but someone within the same people that forces all of them to move on, in a way that causes terrible trauma for generations.

Let's not minimize here. That wasn't "being forced out of their trauma". That was being "murdered en masse by someone they thought they could trust." Let's call a spade a spade and name Venat's actions for what they were.

[Iscah]

We don't really know anything about Azem's side of things, so nobody can really make any definitive statements about what they would/wouldn't/did/didn't think/do/say/eat about the whole situation. That's by design, too; Azem is a blank canvas, because they're a reflection of our WoL, who's also a blank canvas.

[...] 'It's true to me' is more important in this situation than 'it's true to everyone'.

And some of us really dislike that.

I don't care about Azem being like my character. We got through Shadowbringers in Ardbert's company without having an identity crisis about him being the same soul as our character and yet having his own story, appearance and identity.

In the same way, Azem could so easily be a unique character. They could take after Ardbert rather than us, or resemble any or none of the countless mortals who have inherited their soul since the Sundering.

I would much rather that Azem had a role to play, than this endless dance about "we promise Azem is around and doing cool stuff even though you'll never get to hear anything solid about them or their activities. Oh look they're off again, sorry you missed them."

[Iscah]

One detail which stood out to me as a fragment of new lore, though nobody else has commented on it, is this part from near the end:

O star, two weary travelers are returning

We are thee, and thou art us

Flesh and soul and memory to unravel and entwine with thy flow

To weave anew and cast upon the shore

One day

It seems to me that this might be the formal ceremonial incantation for "returning to the star".

[reginleif-]

Since “soul” can mean “person” in English, particularly slightly more archaic English, and “sable”, just as Vyrerus said, typically meant “black” or “dark”, the English version of the text still means “a dark/black figure/person” just that it uses a slightly older and more flowery way of saying that.

Can we agree that it is an editor's duty to avoid the clashing of meanings, unless it is intended? If a word has two meanings, choose a more specific word. If the narrator of the tale is switching between seeing souls and bodies, do not use the word “soul” to describe a figure. Until, again, a puzzle is intended.

Anyway, I understand that this is a too small matter to discuss in depth :)

(I'm sorry for shifting the thread back from the current topic. Amazon suspended my account with the lore book preorder, and I'm at war with the customer support. I hope everyone will get their copies as planned.)