(EW Spoilers) Tales from the Dawn #5 - Days Gone By, Days Yet to Come

[Cleretic]

I doubt Azem would have been too pleased with the convocation's plan to sacrifice newly born souls to bring back the good old days. Also we don't even know if Azem got the message Venat sent them. All we were told is that they did not get a reply and since they were missing since the end of the world some might be jumping the gun as to if they even got the message and decided to ignore it because they didn't agree. I doubt Azem would let one of thier best friends commit sensless murder to bring back their other best friend who gave his life for the good of all that would live. I'd imagine they'd be pretty pissed and wondering what happened to him.

They might've been dead, for all we know.

We don't really know anything about Azem's side of things, so nobody can really make any definitive statements about what they would/wouldn't/did/didn't think/do/say/eat about the whole situation. That's by design, too; Azem is a blank canvas, because they're a reflection of our WoL, who's also a blank canvas.

So basically, you can think Azem did whatever the hell you would be doing given the confines, and nobody can tell you otherwise. ...But that second part should really be given emphasis too: nobody can tell anybody else otherwise. If to you Azem thinks Zodiark was right but thought there were other priorities to handle in the background, that's what they did in your canon and nobody can tell you otherwise. If to you Azem thinks Hydaelyn's right but was too busy putting out fires to reply to their group, nobody can tell you otherwise. If you think Azem looked at all these shenanigans and went 'you know what, screw it, I'm gonna work on my Triple Triad collection', there's nothing anyone can pull up to say that they didn't.

As long as we recognize the smallest boundaries of 'left the Convocation, didn't answer Venat's crew', nobody is wrong. Any aspersions or predictions are essentially fanfiction, but there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we recognize it. 'It's true to me' is more important in this situation than 'it's true to everyone'.

(And all this is just an extended reason why continued stories about the Convocation are worthless, because the only remaining question mark about them is unanswered by design, but that's sort of a secondary point.)

[Nayukhuut]

Stories about the Convocation and the Ancient world are not worthless, not to everyone. To you, maybe, but to others it offers continued glimpses into a world and characters they loved.

Also, I would argue that Venat was plenty wrong. She was the one that decided to well, decide everyone's fate for them. The Convocation at least had a discussion. Either way, that is not the topic of this thread and said topic tends to lead to fights on the forum, so I will drop that thread.

I will say that I would love more stories on pre Sundering Etheirys. We live in modern Etheirys and see those stories first hand, but the old world is gone. The only way we can see the characters we love is through those stories now, and I say keep em coming. There are still Convocation members we know nothing about, for instance.

[redheadturk]

They might've been dead, for all we know.

We don't really know anything about Azem's side of things, so nobody can really make any definitive statements about what they would/wouldn't/did/didn't think/do/say/eat about the whole situation. That's by design, too; Azem is a blank canvas, because they're a reflection of our WoL, who's also a blank canvas.

So basically, you can think Azem did whatever the hell you would be doing given the confines, and nobody can tell you otherwise. ...But that second part should really be given emphasis too: nobody can tell anybody else otherwise. If to you Azem thinks Zodiark was right but thought there were other priorities to handle in the background, that's what they did in your canon and nobody can tell you otherwise. If to you Azem thinks Hydaelyn's right but was too busy putting out fires to reply to their group, nobody can tell you otherwise. If you think Azem looked at all these shenanigans and went 'you know what, screw it, I'm gonna work on my Triple Triad collection', there's nothing anyone can pull up to say that they didn't.

As long as we recognize the smallest boundaries of 'left the Convocation, didn't answer Venat's crew', nobody is wrong. Any aspersions or predictions are essentially fanfiction, but there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we recognize it. 'It's true to me' is more important in this situation than 'it's true to everyone'.

(And all this is just an extended reason why continued stories about the Convocation are worthless, because the only remaining question mark about them is unanswered by design, but that's sort of a secondary point.)

Mine basically said "screw both sides" after losing his lover [Elidibus] and best friend [Hythlodaeus] in the sacrifices.

[Cleretic]

I headcanon that my Azem left to investigate the situation in the other territories and try to help the people there, only to come back and find that Emet-Selch allowed her brother Hythlodaeus to be sacrificed to Zodiark in her absence.

And get absolutely livid in response, beat the crap out of Emet, and promptly leave again to do whatever it is she did right before dying in the Sundering.

Yay!

And mine actually stems from a general view that, from our perspective, Azem is probably not what we'd see as 'a good person'. That's partially because I think the most interesting part of Amaurot is the ways in which they're very much not perfect, and partially because I like the dynamic that the WoL is actually a better person than the deified figure they're being compared to. So given one of my main jobs is Summoner I imagine their 'combat style' being purpose-built creation magic with little regard for the creature's comfort, wellbeing, or long-term viability; if an explosive bird solves the problem they're looking at today, it doesn't matter if it can survive to see tomorrow. (so yes, in my headcanon, they probably are a major cause of Hermes' existential questions.)

So I sort of picture them striking off from the Convocation not because of any moral objections per se, but because they just bet they can come up with something better. Perhaps when the sundering hit, they were off in some cave convinced they were onto something... or, perhaps they were there to see the skies burn, and caught the business end of their hubris as their creation magic turned against them, dying unremarkably and unnoticed.

As fun as that idea is, you can all understand why I don't particularly share it or try to make others see it.

[redheadturk]

And mine actually stems from a general view that, from our perspective, Azem is probably not what we'd see as 'a good person'. That's partially because I think the most interesting part of Amaurot is the ways in which they're very much not perfect, and partially because I like the dynamic that the WoL is actually a better person than the deified figure they're being compared to. So given one of my main jobs is Summoner I imagine their 'combat style' being purpose-built creation magic with little regard for the creature's comfort, wellbeing, or long-term viability; if an explosive bird solves the problem they're looking at today, it doesn't matter if it can survive to see tomorrow. (so yes, in my headcanon, they probably are a major cause of Hermes' existential questions.)

So I sort of picture them striking off from the Convocation not because of any moral objections per se, but because they just bet they can come up with something better. Perhaps when the sundering hit, they were off in some cave convinced they were onto something... or, perhaps they were there to see the skies burn, and caught the business end of their hubris as their creation magic turned against them, dying unremarkably and unnoticed.

As fun as that idea is, you can all understand why I don't particularly share it or try to make others see it.

We all know you disliked the Ancients and Azem in particular, Cleretic. I prefer a more mature view of both that shows them in a better light [I believe the Ancients were *good* people and prefer their society over the wars, hunger, rape, and slavery of the sundered, thank you very much. Give me that split timeline before I have to shake it out of you, SE!]. Azem would not have been Azem if they did not genuinely care about the world and its peoples, because that was what their seat required so far as qualifications. The four traits every Azem shares because they must to get the job: A love of traveling; the ability to translate the desires of Amaurot into a form the people outside of it could understand and vice verse; knowledge of the human mind enough to give counseling to *all the people of the star* both inside and outside of the city; and the intelligence, resourcefulness, and decency to know how to serve the needs of both the city and the people outside of it.

Anyone who does not have all four traits does not qualify for the seat, so yeah, Azem would not strike as a Heath Ledger Joker sort that would watch the world burn. It falls outside of his seat purview to do that, and if he was the sort who would would not *be* Azem.

[jameseoakes]

Anyone who does not have all four traits does not qualify for the seat, so yeah, Azem would not strike as a Heath Ledger Joker sort that would watch the world burn. It falls outside of his seat purview to do that, and if he was the sort who would would not *be* Azem.

I really hate the trauma makes you a better person trope that EW pushes really hard, especially as the people it breaks then get vilified. It's a really twisted plot point

[redheadturk]

I really hate the trauma makes you a better person trope that EW pushes really hard, especially as the people it breaks then get vilified. It's a really twisted plot point

Exactly! The Ancients deserved far better than they got, and the Sundered Lovers among the fanbase villifying a society a not insignificant portion of the fanbase loves is not a good look at all.

[Cleretic]

Thank you for proving that I was right to keep this one to myself, this is exactlyt he sort of complaint I expected I'd get. But, well, we're in it now.

The four traits every Azem shares because they must to get the job: A love of traveling; the ability to translate the desires of Amaurot into a form the people outside of it could understand and vice verse; knowledge of the human mind enough to give counseling to *all the people of the star* both inside and outside of the city; and the intelligence, resourcefulness, and decency to know how to serve the needs of both the city and the people outside of it.

Anyone who does not have all four traits does not qualify for the seat, so yeah, Azem would not strike as a Heath Ledger Joker sort that would watch the world burn. It falls outside of his seat purview to do that, and if he was the sort who would would not *be* Azem.

Good to know you think so highly of Venat's character, even if you do disagree with what she did.

My personal comparison for this isn't any comic book hero, but rather the Greek myth the Ancients themselves pull from: if we're looking at a lineup with the likes of Hermes, Hades and Hephaestus, my angle was 'okay, so let's add Nemesis'. A figure of horrifying, divine retribution, using the tools that we know the Ancients have to pull the sort of stuff that turned up in real-world myth. Yes, they'll save you from the threat that was about to befall you; they just didn't do it cleanly or politely.

I don't look at those qualities and see a contradiction here. They're happy to travel, happy to talk, happy to help. They would be a good Azem. They're just horrifying about it, as we know some Ancients are.

Of course mine is informed by my tastes and preferences. So are yours, and I won't begrudge you for having them; your favorite part of that corner of the story was clearly Elidibus and Hyth. And it happens to be that mine were Meletos and Pandaemonium (the concept, not the story; the story was fairly disappointing).

[jameseoakes]

I don't look at those qualities and see a contradiction here. They're happy to travel, happy to talk, happy to help. They would be a good Azem. They're just horrifying about it, as we know some Ancients are.
.

I really can't understand your utter hatred of Ancients, I just don't understand why you've got such twisted head cannons for them

[thegreatonemal]

They might've been dead, for all we know.

We don't really know anything about Azem's side of things, so nobody can really make any definitive statements about what they would/wouldn't/did/didn't think/do/say/eat about the whole situation. That's by design, too; Azem is a blank canvas, because they're a reflection of our WoL, who's also a blank canvas.

So basically, you can think Azem did whatever the hell you would be doing given the confines, and nobody can tell you otherwise. ...But that second part should really be given emphasis too: nobody can tell anybody else otherwise. If to you Azem thinks Zodiark was right but thought there were other priorities to handle in the background, that's what they did in your canon and nobody can tell you otherwise. If to you Azem thinks Hydaelyn's right but was too busy putting out fires to reply to their group, nobody can tell you otherwise. If you think Azem looked at all these shenanigans and went 'you know what, screw it, I'm gonna work on my Triple Triad collection', there's nothing anyone can pull up to say that they didn't.

As long as we recognize the smallest boundaries of 'left the Convocation, didn't answer Venat's crew', nobody is wrong. Any aspersions or predictions are essentially fanfiction, but there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we recognize it. 'It's true to me' is more important in this situation than 'it's true to everyone'.

(And all this is just an extended reason why continued stories about the Convocation are worthless, because the only remaining question mark about them is unanswered by design, but that's sort of a secondary point.)

Oh I know that, but as we both know how things around this topic normally goes. Folks forget to add the fanfiction part to their takes.