No Wrong Answers: What Job(s) do you think are the best desgined, and why?

[Sunhwapark]

BLM.
Producer’s main job, better input on class gameplay evolution.
I guess war too, but idk why it’s so absurdly strong across the board.

[Renathras]

Not trying to steer the conversation (my personal position is BLM is the worst Job in the game), but I have been wondering for a bit why BLM is seen as so good but not RDM, despite both having a freeform non-rotation that's easy to pick up but has a high skill ceiling and both require extensive fight knowledge for maximum output (where BLM has to deal with long cast times, RDM has to deal with knowing when it is and isn't safe to be in melee windows and using Corps-a-corps and Engagement/Displacement), including factoring in downtime and resource generation/expenditure.

I know RDM has the "stimga" of being "the easy Caster" from SB, but even then it had more nuance than people gave it credit for, and it certainly does now. (This isn't me trying to toot RDM's horn, but rather to figure out why BLM is seen as amazing and not RDM, despite RDM sharing those traits...)

[I guess it DOES somewhat reflect the community how many people say BLM despite it being one of the least played Jobs in the game, but I am curious for the why of it. Regardless, appreciate all the replies so far. Good stuff to read and consider.]

[TheDustyOne]

The main reason BLM is well loved is because at its core, it's pretty easy to understand and introduces its mechanics slowly over the leveling process in a way that's forgiving at first, and slowly expects you to improve over time. Early levels expects you to swap between Fire and Ice to spend and build MP, the AF/UI timer is practically a non-issue so people just get used to the core of it first, 60+ expects you to now manage that AF/UI timer and work around Fire IV, and everything after that is moreso just niceties and small power boosts that make the rotation feel more "complete" as you go (Despair using up the small amount of MP left, Xenoglossy giving much needed movement, Sharpcast letting you plan with guaranteed procs).

I do think Square should rethink when BLM learns some abilities, Fire IV I think should be part of the level 50 rotation, but apart from some leveling issues, BLM is extremely well put together and has an incredible amount of gameplay depth the more you play it. The skill ceiling is incredibly high and the floor is a lot lower than people realise.

RDM is good and of course much more forgiving than BLM, the only real complaint is that there's not a lot beyond RDMs core compared to BLM. BLM has all these silly little tricks like Transpose lines and wanting to skip weak F3/B3 casts, or odd playstyles like Infinite Paradox, I remember a rotation that avoided Fire and Blizzard IV back in ShB if you had enough SpS (no idea if such a rotation is a thing at the moment). RDM doesn't really do anything like that, you build gauge, you spend it, continue building more gauge. This gives BLM a ton of different play expressions that, while some aren't optimal, it lets people experiment in how they want to play instead of being constrained to a single playstyle.

This is largely why I think people give more credit to BLM over RDM, both are good, but BLM has a stupid amount of depth, and that depth gives plenty of gameplay variety that RDM lacks. There's no option for a high speed RDM, or a "more melee" RDM, or a "high mobility nuker" RDM like BLM has with Infinite Paradox.

Incidentally, I would consider both BLM and RDM to be the best designed jobs in the game so far. RDM is more my style personally, but I try to put my own bias aside and try to look more from a game designers perspective; what offers the most depth while also being accessible on a basic level? I think BLM does that best, RDM is accessible, and requires a fair bit of fight knowledge to optimize, but it doesn't have the same level of depth that BLM offers in how you can play.

I would also avoid the idea that unpopular = bad and popular = good. SB WHM was the most popular healer then and we all know how bad that was. BLM just has a niche playstyle, not everyone enjoys the turret caster, but the ones that do enjoy the turret caster, have one with a good deal of flexibility and depth, so they're happy with it.

[VentVanitas]

Not trying to steer the conversation (my personal position is BLM is the worst Job in the game), but I have been wondering for a bit why BLM is seen as so good but not RDM, despite both having a freeform non-rotation that's easy to pick up but has a high skill ceiling and both require extensive fight knowledge for maximum output (where BLM has to deal with long cast times, RDM has to deal with knowing when it is and isn't safe to be in melee windows and using Corps-a-corps and Engagement/Displacement), including factoring in downtime and resource generation/expenditure.

I know RDM has the "stimga" of being "the easy Caster" from SB, but even then it had more nuance than people gave it credit for, and it certainly does now. (This isn't me trying to toot RDM's horn, but rather to figure out why BLM is seen as amazing and not RDM, despite RDM sharing those traits...)

[I guess it DOES somewhat reflect the community how many people say BLM despite it being one of the least played Jobs in the game, but I am curious for the why of it. Regardless, appreciate all the replies so far. Good stuff to read and consider.]

idk where you're getting the idea that people don't praise RDM, the impression I get from EW RDM everywhere is that its a well designed job in a poorly balanced role. (cough cough no thanks to SMN)

[WaxSw]

Not trying to steer the conversation (my personal position is BLM is the worst Job in the game), but I have been wondering for a bit why BLM is seen as so good but not RDM, despite both having a freeform non-rotation that's easy to pick up but has a high skill ceiling and both require extensive fight knowledge for maximum output (where BLM has to deal with long cast times, RDM has to deal with knowing when it is and isn't safe to be in melee windows and using Corps-a-corps and Engagement/Displacement), including factoring in downtime and resource generation/expenditure.

I know RDM has the "stimga" of being "the easy Caster" from SB, but even then it had more nuance than people gave it credit for, and it certainly does now. (This isn't me trying to toot RDM's horn, but rather to figure out why BLM is seen as amazing and not RDM, despite RDM sharing those traits...)

[I guess it DOES somewhat reflect the community how many people say BLM despite it being one of the least played Jobs in the game, but I am curious for the why of it. Regardless, appreciate all the replies so far. Good stuff to read and consider.]

I can only talk from my perspective so the reasons why I think BLM is better designed than RDM (even tough I agree its a job that its quite decently designed) are:

-BLM has Much MUCH more unique gameplay. RDM forces a bit of uniqueness due its dualcast and melee but they don't deviate as much from the norm and don't force the rdm to approach the fights in a much different way than the usual. Its rotation is not that "freeform" if you know what you're doing and at its core is another builder-spender job with a strong burst and buffs that line every 2m, meanwhile BLM long casts condition its whole gameplan on a fight to fight basis and its damage profile is the most unique of any other dps of the game

-The optimization potential is much higher on BLM. No need to explain much here, the existence of non standard lines and how you can tune your rotation to fit the encounter perfectly, the depth and importance of instant casts... BLM is really in another league when it comes to how much you can squeeze out of it if you want. Its essentially a job much more rewarding if you put the time and effort

There are probably more like how in EW Rdm main changes did not come from any of its new actions while Blm's paradox enabled even more different ways to play the job, and for some even balance can be a point in favor of BLM (hard to master but it pays off while RDM's mastery only gives a slight advantage over a job that don't require effort like SMN...on some fights, and body checks make some of its utility irrelevant)

In the end RDM is not badly designed, its one of the better designed job but we have to pick one and while RDM is a 7.75-8 BLM is a 9+.

[CidHeiral]

(my personal position is BLM is the worst Job in the game)

I guess it DOES somewhat reflect the community how many people say BLM despite it being one of the least played Jobs in the game

I am so tired of people conflating the popularity of something with it being good or bad. Things that are simple will almost always be more popular than things that are not. It's the same reason League is more popular than Dota 2, CoD is more popular than every other shooter, etc.

Ky Kiske and Sol Badguy are extremely popular characters in the Guilty Gear series and usually the most played. They are also very simple characters. Should every other character in the roster be deleted? They're all not as popular, so that means they shouldn't exist, right? All the Zato and Venom mains will be totally cool with playing Ky and Sol, right?

The average person off the street is absolutely horrendous at whatever game they choose to play and will take the path of least resistance. There's nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean the options with more complexity have any less value. It's actually quite the opposite because without that complexity as an option you're leaving money on the table from an audience you're ignoring, which is especially important in a genre like MMOs designed to cast as wide of a net as possible.

[Zairava]

BLM and it isn't even close. It's basics are simple to understand and it has an incredible skill ceiling to boot. There isn't a single other job that plays like Black Mage in the game. It has consequences with reliable abilities for recovery and it's super satisfying to play. Every time I play BLM it feels like I have room to improve and that's fantastic. Paradox is also one of the best level 90 skills out of anything all the jobs have gotten.

Popularity means absolutely nothing except for sheer numbers and should not be used to determine whether something is good or not. Cid already covered this and it simply is not worth my time to beat a dead horse here.