People that say dungeons are too easy...

[Ardeth]

This, too.

The players do that. To be fair when all you care about is the reward that is the outcome.

[Shurrikhan]

I loved the cata dungeons, but they were tuned too hard for queueing into with randoms. I did all the heroic dungeon achievements for the mount the first week or so of the expansion.

I still don't get this. I PuGed consistently, with just a Mage, Druid, or Paladin friend with me once in a blue moon and... maybe averaged a wipe or two per run, with all of maybe... 4 failed runs to well over a thousand clears. (Yes, I ran a lot of dungeons in Cata. They were actually fun to me, and that shit happens when things are fun, almost regardless of reward efficiency.)

Amdapor Keep, before overgearing and Demon Wall losing so much of its mechanics, had a lower success rate than most Cata dungeons. Pharos Sirius, pre-nerfs, lower still. Our literal 2nd and 3rd endgame dungeons in FFXIV. With the latter being one of the types of experiences veterans most have most wished to see returned.

[Renathras]

Not merely semantics. There's "harder" as in "more to do", and there's "harder" as in reduced leniency. While both may contribute, they encounter diminishing returns separately.

Which is all fine and good, but in terms of this sort of conversation, both are identical, so the distinction is irrelevant. If people are saying they'd hate if they were made harder, etc, both would make it harder, therefore, both are the same result. So the distinction isn't relevant.

That status quo which itself broke multiple status quos to make things as negligible as they are now?

Which is also irrelevant. It is the status quo (and more than people like, has been for a lot longer than people want to admit). Why do we have the barriers after every second pull? Because people were wall-to-wall pulling - and complaining to and about any Tank and/or Healer that didn't want to do them - since HW. It got to the point it was overwhelming new or casual players who were trying their best to meet the community demands (of a segment, but very vocal one) of the community. The Devs put the walls in so that those players didn't feel pressured to pull ALL FOUR packs at once. Because before the walls, it was generally that. We had the same linear design of long but pretty hallways with 4 dungeon packs then a boss, repeat x3. This was true in SB, I feel like this was true in HW, and I think it was true in later ARR. The (Hard) dungeons in ARR and some of the later MSQ ones (Keeper of the Lake, for example) followed this same pattern.

The only dungeons in the game that really really break with this are that some of the ARR (Hard) ones had more dungeon packs and at least a few avoidable ones (I feel like Amdapor Keep you could avoid some of the big patrolling Iron Giant enemies), but after Brayflox (NOT hard) and Aurum Vale, dungeons really were a lot more...hallway-ey. Most of the HW dungeons are, if not all of them. You have to kill the dragon cultist dudes in Warrens, you have to kill the summoner dues in Amdapor (Hard) and Vault, and even if you get them to 1 HP, they become invulnerable until finishing the summon because NO WAY you can be allowed to not fight ALL the enemies. Well, until that one SB dungeon and that one ShB dungeon where you can destroy the pod(s) before the enemies spawn, but they have more or less enough health you can only destroy 1 or 2, implying the devs designed that to be the intended pack size.

The idea that dungeons were REALLY different hasn't been true since AT LEAST Heavensward, and in a lot of ways, since ARR. Dungeons being hallways has been true (until Criterion, sorta, since only one path is open at a time, including forks, for a given run) for all 2.1 to present dungeons, I think. 2.0 dungeons were the only exception to this rule. And know what people generally did? Unless your Tank was trying to get the achievement for mapping that one side room they didn't have in that final big bog area of Brayflox, your party just did the same "most efficient" path every time you ran them. I GOT THAT MAP ACHIEVEMENT by being the Tank in a run and letting the party know I wanted to GET THAT ACHIEVEMENT and so was going to go to all the spots. They all went along with it because NONE OF THEM HAD IT EITHER.

.

I DO feel like they've done better jobs on making the trash at least FEEL more distinct in the past, but let's be real, dungeons have been long hallways with ~4-5 packs of mobs then a boss, repeat x3, since probably patch 2.1 and definitely since patch 3.0. Like, can you think of a dungeon offhand with FOUR bosses? I can. But only one. And one of those was more of a penultimate mini-boss/glorified trash (since the segment in it between the second and final boss has it basically in place of the latter trash pulls). Pharos Sirius. [I kinda want to say old Toto-Rak might have, but I'm not even sure that would count because they were all Ochus...and I think it was still just the two.] That is literally the only dungeon in this entire game that doesn't have just 3 bosses.

And can you think of a dungeon, that isn't Criterion, after ARR that had multiple paths or enemies you could avoid agroing? I...can't, honestly.

I'll simplify. I don't like criterion. It's too many steps above what I'm looking for,...

Howso? It has three difficulties, doesn't it?

I don't get how Criterion is too hard (you can literally solo it) but you don't think current dungeons (which you can't solo unless you're on a certain Tank) aren't hard enough...

The challenge current dungeon trash provides is artificial in that you have to pull disconnected packs of mobs to even get to that point.

When was the last time this wasn't true? I feel like having to pull multiple packs to have "a real challenge" has been true since...at least SB, possibly HW. Even in Ala Mhigo, a dungeon notorious for kicking people's butts because healers and tanks don't have their full healing and mitigation kits, people often pull multiple trash packs before running into that.

I don't want every one group of mobs to hit with the strength of multiple groups of mobs, for every group, in every dungeon. I want single packs of mobs to have more mechanics than just "vomits AoE at your feet" more often. I don't care if that's too much for the ever-nebulous "casuals" demographic.

Again, was this EVER true?

I'm trying to think of the last dungeons where the mobs had mechanics that weren't AOE vomit. I can think of a few examples, like the mold things in Amdapor you kill to get rid of the poison field effect or the web walls in (old) Toto-Rak. Or that one fight with the two dragons (Sohm Al, maybe?) that are sorta a miniboss before the final boss. But honestly, there have NOT really been a ton of cases of mobs/trash that did more than "hit hard" and "vomits AoE at your feet" very often.

If I end up running Piece of Content X multiple times, it will feel easier and easier over time, by virtue of increased familiarity. If I run roulettes repeatedly for, say, tomestones, the dungeons in them will all feel easier and easier over time.

Rather than focus on easier vs. harder, I'd rather the focus be on variety of mechanics and environments. Make them memorable. The problem is when content is so bland that it's not even worth remembering -- like what passes for a dungeon's hallways and trash packs these days.

This is one reason I think Criterion is a good vehicle for this, since the different paths would at least give you different bosses/different mechanics on the miniboss to shake things up. It's also why I think one of the biggest things to hurt Expert roulettes (other than existing and being farmed endlessly for tomes by anyone who doesn't do hunt trains) was when they went from 2 dungeons per patch to 1. Before that, you'd have 3 (or 4?) dungeons in Expert roulette at any given time, so it didn't feel quite so...samey. Having only 2 means a 50/50 choice, but you can have a streak of several days in a row getting the same one. To add insult to injury, the longer (4 months) patch cycle now means each of those dungeons is in the que for EIGHT MONTHS before falling off. We had EIGHT MONTHS of Lapis Manalis. We'll have at least EIGHT MONTHS (and possibly closer to...gods help us, TWELVE?!...if they don't add a new one with 5.6/7) of Aetherfont.

With the latter being one of the types of experiences veterans most have most wished to see returned. [/I]

But...not everyone does. Not all vets, and not all players. Cataclysm was miserable. It broke my guild and many of my friends stopped playing. 4.1 caused a lot of people to quit dungeons entirely. So much so that they went back on it with the 4.3 dungeons (the time traveling ones) because it was so bad (it didn't help there was nothing else to do in 4.1 but the troll dungeons).

I don't mind a deep end of the pool as well as it's clearly marked and not everyone is forced to play in it. MSQ dungeons should never be that. Hell, Pharos Sirius wasn't a MSQ dungeon, either, it was an optional unlock, wasn't it? I can't remember, but wasn't AV as well? In fact, as far as I can tell, they STILL ARE optional. Note "sidequest" in the unlock for them: https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Guide:Progression_and_Level_Locked_Content

[strawberrycake]

Yeah it's why we all do M+, we all know basic lvling dungeons are brain dead LMFAO. It's supposed to be. The issue is in XIV is I have no Alternative WORTH doing. Variant and Critireon are literally worthless to most players unless you're here for the content only. This is not a hard concept the grasp plz stop acting like it is.

Edit: Last thing I'll say on this.

It was figured out YEARS ago that lvling dungeons in WoW should be accessible for newer players and people lvling because of how many expansions WoW used to have you go through to reach max lvl, and how long it took to even get through each expansion,before the new Lvling system was put in place. In place of wanting challenging content in small form/small group content, we've had several different approaches for mid-core to high end players such as. Heroic Dungeons, Challenge Modes, Timeed Runs, Mythic Dungeons and Mythic + Dungeons.

As always do your history Homework before saying *wows just as brain dead*

[Mayhemmer]

I don't get how Criterion is too hard (you can literally solo it) but you don't think current dungeons (which you can't solo unless you're on a certain Tank) aren't hard enough...

You're thinking of Variant version, which have three paths to choose and can be soloed on any job. Variant mobs are extremely simple, to counterbalance the fact that you can tackle them solo, so they are the exact opposite of what I'm wanting.

Criterion "normal" (and I assume Criterion Savage as well, but I'm unsure if it even has mobs because I've never had a desire to do it), in it's entirety, is too many steps above what I'm wanting. Criterion normal is not MSQ dungeons with harder mobs, they are far more difficult content all around, and require coordination you realistically aren't going to get from DF groups doing MSQ dungeons.

When was the last time this wasn't true? I feel like having to pull multiple packs to have "a real challenge" has been true since...at least SB, possibly HW. Even in Ala Mhigo, a dungeon notorious for kicking people's butts because healers and tanks don't have their full healing and mitigation kits, people often pull multiple trash packs before running into that.

I'm not advocating for wall-to-walling to be where the "challenge" comes from. All more mobs really mean is more damage going to the tank, more often, and I don't find that particularly interesting.

Again, was this EVER true?

I'm trying to think of the last dungeons where the mobs had mechanics that weren't AOE vomit. I can think of a few examples, like the mold things in Amdapor you kill to get rid of the poison field effect or the web walls in (old) Toto-Rak. Or that one fight with the two dragons (Sohm Al, maybe?) that are sorta a miniboss before the final boss. But honestly, there have NOT really been a ton of cases of mobs/trash that did more than "hit hard" and "vomits AoE at your feet" very often.

I don't really get what you're trying to say here, but it sounds like you're agreeing with me. There are instances of regular mobs throughout the game's dungeons using mechanics or abilities that are rare to see in dungeons. Far too rare, in my opinion.

Again, I don't want each and every one group of mobs you encounter in dungeons to just hit harder. I don't want every one group of mobs to hit with the strength of two groups. I just want mobs within those groups to utilize more interesting mechanics. I feel like I'm just typing what I said initially a second time...

The novelty of new dungeons in Dawntrail will begin to fade even more quickly if mobs remain boring speedbumps with no mechanics outside of spamming circular or point-blank cone AoE, which is the box standard for nearly every modern dungeon and something I want to see changed.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't get how Criterion is too hard

Aside from your again getting terms mixed up... consider his context. Again, there's not just the matter of difficulty; there's the matter of their being different content.

If one is looking for a dungeon like The Twinning to at least have more interesting trash, the occasional environmental hazard or gimmick to hit mobs with, some sort of flow-varying mechanic to set it apart, or the like, and some extra (though mild) mechanics on bosses, they are not asking for...

• The Twinning (Another) with only partial asset reusage (a la Brayflox Normal vs. Brayflow Hard),
• the Twinning but minced into incohesively connected stretches of dungeon between A/B/C path switches,
• the Twinning but with Variant Actions and a disrupted flow, nor
• The Twinning but with Variant Actions and no regular Raises and wipes causing complete resets.

They're just asking for a slightly more distinct and fleshed out dungeon in the first place.

When was the last time [trash being almost painfully uninteresting] wasn't true?

How is that relevant?

>> "MP is UI bloat on most jobs."
<< "When was it not?"

When was a better past state required for us to make any attempt at an improvement? Especially given that you treat anything that had been changed away from as not worth considering...

[localareanetwork]

I been running Lunar Subterenne for TOP BiS this entire week and I will just say right now that every other run someone ate shit more than once. If they're so easy then why am I seeing people die left and right (to the antlion guy mostly)?

[TaleraRistain]

I think dungeons are incredibly easy. I also don't feel that that's an issue. Those things aren't designed in a way that I know will challenge me. But I'm used to the idea of tiers of difficulty from other MMOs. It didn't exist in EQ. There was just the one path. But with EQII and early WoW you started seeing the solo, group, and raid paths. And you could get a rewarding experience down any path, with extras as you went up the difficulty tiers.

We have similar here, where MSQ is very easy and most dungeons are very easy and quick because they are going to be run over and over. But they're missing that final piece with some sort of optional dungeon or dungeons that can be a step up in difficulty, because they're optional. If you want challenge, you have to step into what would have been the next content tier up in games like EQII or early WoW.

Base Criterion could have been this, but they opted to design it at Savage level. I think we would see less discontent with the basic content being easier if they had more stops along the difficulty curve between that point and what is optional now.

Though some people will never be happy. Back in EQII, I did beta for the first expansion. And we had people on the raid tier in gear only obtainable from raiding complaining that the solo questlines and overland content were too easy. So the difficulty got bumped up when it went live and that put it out of the range of those who were focused on solo playing. They dialed it back, but they wouldn't have had to if they had designed the content originally to challenge those who were focused on that type of content, and not just those who were vacationing there on their way to something higher. I enjoy how XIV tries to keep their content accessible to a wide variety of players. I just think they need to add content to make a smoother difficulty curve, and put lots of thought and attention into making those upticks in difficulty challenging to those who are focused on that level of content.