Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[AmiableApkallu]

Which healer do you think should have the most complex dps rotation?

Mu.

Design each healer's kit so that it matches its identity (or gives it an identity). Let the complexity and skill ceilings fall where they may.

Then, revisit designs if most of the jobs end up with a BLM-like skill floor, where the kit seems straightforward enough against a striking dummy but turns out to be a challenge when faced with mechanics.

[KenZentra]

I have a question for y'all. Which healer do you think should have the most complex dps rotation? Should it be white mage because white mage's healing is the most simple? Should it be sage because sage was advertised for that?

Sage for sure, but I think SCH should also have the DPS options it had before in HW. Honestly get rid of Art of War (or whatever their AoE is) and replace it with Shadowflare, Bio, Miasma spreads (but maybe have the spread built in like it is for PVP).

Anyways! Yeah, I'd love if SGE went ALL in on dealing dps to heal and expanding the scope of Kardia, maybe as an ability that you can place on up to a certain number of players for the brunt of their AoE healing.

[Shurrikhan]

I have a question for y'all. Which healer do you think should have the most complex dps rotation? Should it be white mage because white mage's healing is the most simple? Should it be sage because sage was advertised for that?

I don't want any to become X just because they were 'advertised' as X. I just want to see each kit develop organically. And I suppose a bit again depends on what you mean by a "rotation".

I wouldn't want WHM's healing (and sustain support tools, etc.) to remain as simple as now (nor any other healer's, though with WHM's probably rising in proportion unless shields go from mostly thought-diminishing to thought-provoking), so I'd rather not make predictions around that premise. That said, the elements underpinning its class, especially if they were returned to the forefront and the all-in-one basic "Light" element restricted to a burst mode of sorts (or changed into meta forms of each element, as in Light, Spirit, Flow) seem to me to have a ton of opportunity to build out something easy to learn but thoroughly difficult to master.

If we were to actually make Kardia a % heal, which would in turn entice Sage to increase its control over its damage dynamics, and then develop those dynamics yet further to reward foresight and/or good gambles, then it's going to end up with decently complex damage-dealing, but not likely in a "rotational" fashion. After all, unless you just make SGE's damage just a means of building gauge/MP to then be spent for healing later (so, just a reversed, more uptime-dependent Lily), the damage dynamics have to be capable of flexing to and around healing needs.

Personally, I've never been much of a fan of making damage and healing nigh inseparable from one another (so massive a loss to combined throughput if one declines to put up their 'damage-also-heals' buff that it's obligatory on all but striking dummies), so even that revised SGE wouldn't be as appealing to me as a revised SCH or WHM likely would be (AST being so different, due to cards, that it didn't seem the fairest contrast), but it'd be a damn sight more appealing than now.

Tl;dr: I wouldn't want to attempt backward design on any of the kits to fit some preconception of how they should end up (I'd rather only polish at the end for a bit more diversity if necessary), but I had to guess around the revisions I'd like to see for each job, the actual damage kits complexity would probably fall from WHM to SGE to SCH to AST, while the total downtime kit complexity for each would be about equal, with some aspects clicking for some more than for others (making job A seem easier to player A, but job B seem easier to player B, etc.).

[IDontPetLalas]

What basically Shurrikhan said. I honestly held off on any reply because my first reaction was an instinctive "NOPE, not touching this one" give the multiple discussions that we've had , ranging from what constitutes a "rotation", to whether simple and complex healing jobs should be treated differently (i.e. if you choose to play a complex job, and it is *harder than the simple one* is that in part its own reward for mastering the job), to healing and DPS interaction, to what "complex" even is, and more.

But it could boil down to that first line, i.e. "I don't want any to become X just because they were 'advertised' as X. I just want to see each kit develop organically. And I suppose a bit again depends on what you mean by a "rotation"."

[Mayhemmer]

I have a question for y'all. Which healer do you think should have the most complex dps rotation?

I'm of the mind that healers shouldn't be subjected to adherence to rotations at all. At least, not 'rotations' as we would prescribe to DPS jobs. Obviously the game just isn't really designed that way, and there will always be a math'd out meta the get the best results out of each job. I personally just want healers to provide an (engaging) experience I can't get with DPS or even tanks, but to do that, I feel their design would have to shift to lean far more into weaving their central mechanics into their kits to a far greater degree than we have right now. In short: where DPS and tanks lean into pretty rigid rotations (with notable cases of flexibility), I'd like if healers provided more dynamic gameplay at every level of play. I don't hate that this game is a hallway, but I just want that hallway to be broadened a bit.

WHM, SGE, and AST all already have this to some degree, with Lilies, Kardia, and Cards interacting with and contributing to other parts of their kits, but I'd like to see that taken way further. I want fun kits, and to play healer for reasons other than just wanting to skip a queue.

[Saraide]

What basically Shurrikhan said. I honestly held off on any reply because my first reaction was an instinctive "NOPE, not touching this one" give the multiple discussions that we've had , ranging from what constitutes a "rotation", to whether simple and complex healing jobs should be treated differently (i.e. if you choose to play a complex job, and it is *harder than the simple one* is that in part its own reward for mastering the job), to healing and DPS interaction, to what "complex" even is, and more.

But it could boil down to that first line, i.e. "I don't want any to become X just because they were 'advertised' as X. I just want to see each kit develop organically. And I suppose a bit again depends on what you mean by a "rotation"."

A very open ended question I admit. In this case I would describe it as how much thought you have to put into your next few damage spells.

[Renathras]

I have a question for y'all. Which healer do you think should have the most complex dps rotation? Should it be white mage because white mage's healing is the most simple? Should it be sage because sage was advertised for that?

SGE would be the most logical choice.

It being billed as such for one reason, but that's hardly the only one that would make this logical.

Kardia, as a system, is RIPE for exploiting for a DPS-fueled healing rotation. The tooltip even seems to imply that there was (or may yet be) plans to have more than one Kardia target at a given time. Of all the healers, SGE is the most primed for a DPS kit/rotation since doing so would result in healing.

A further consideration is that there is (or was, before EW) no baggage of "existing players". If SGE were introduced with a more complex DPS rotation, there'd be no "prior SGE players" complaining about the Job having changed out from under them because...there'd be no prior SGE players.

And starting at a later level means someone that doesn't like healer gameplay in games in general but enjoys more DPS could level an actual DPS Job to 70 and then pick up SGE, minimizing their time playing something they're bored with, whereas WHM and AST don't really afford that, and SCH doesn't if the player finds healer DPS kits boring as they'd probably also find SMN's boring as well (especially while leveling it!)

It also really fits the lore and in-game pitch of the Job (as well as the out of game pitch) as being a very complex and technical Job weighing and balancing attacking enemies and healing allies.

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So in terms of which should have the most complex, that makes the most sense...or did before EW.

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There is the caveat: NOW we DO have "prior SGE players" who may like it as it is and NOT want it changed.

In which case second choice/honorable mention goes to SCH, since there are players old enough to have played it in SB or even HW and want those abilities and that playstyle back.

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So one of those would be the logical choices, imo, to answer your question.

[Aravell]

I have a question for y'all. Which healer do you think should have the most complex dps rotation? Should it be white mage because white mage's healing is the most simple? Should it be sage because sage was advertised for that?

In my opinion, none of them should be squished into a specific niche. I think all jobs should be allowed to evolve with their own kits and let the complexity fall where it may. Organic evolution would result in a more fun to play job than artificially holding back or artificially stimulating certain portions of a job because "it's meant to be the complex one" or "it's meant to be the easy one".

[Saraide]

I don't want any to become X just because they were 'advertised' as X. I just want to see each kit develop organically. And I suppose a bit again depends on what you mean by a "rotation".

I wouldn't want WHM's healing (and sustain support tools, etc.) to remain as simple as now (nor any other healer's, though with WHM's probably rising in proportion unless shields go from mostly thought-diminishing to thought-provoking), so I'd rather not make predictions around that premise. That said, the elements underpinning its class, especially if they were returned to the forefront and the all-in-one basic "Light" element restricted to a burst mode of sorts (or changed into meta forms of each element, as in Light, Spirit, Flow) seem to me to have a ton of opportunity to build out something easy to learn but thoroughly difficult to master.

-snip-

Tl;dr: I wouldn't want to attempt backward design on any of the kits to fit some preconception of how they should end up (I'd rather only polish at the end for a bit more diversity if necessary), but I had to guess around the revisions I'd like to see for each job, the actual damage kits complexity would probably fall from WHM to SGE to SCH to AST, while the total downtime kit complexity for each would be about equal, with some aspects clicking for some more than for others (making job A seem easier to player A, but job B seem easier to player B, etc.).

I do think there are natural design progression paths for each of the healers based on what already exists or has existed in the past before even thinking about how difficult the endresult should be to play but not all of them are strictly gameplay related. Sure, scholar's dots are very much a thing people remember but whm's elemental part is largely aesthetic. Stoneskin, aquaveil and divine benison all do the same thing aesthetically. There is gonna be wiggle room.

Mu.

Design each healer's kit so that it matches its identity (or gives it an identity). Let the complexity and skill ceilings fall where they may.

Then, revisit designs if most of the jobs end up with a BLM-like skill floor, where the kit seems straightforward enough against a striking dummy but turns out to be a challenge when faced with mechanics.

You're gonna have to tell the other people who responded to un-answer if I were un-ask the question lol

[IDontPetLalas]

I do think there are natural design progression paths for each of the healers based on what already exists or has existed in the past before even thinking about how difficult the endresult should be to play but not all of them are strictly gameplay related. Sure, scholar's dots are very much a thing people remember but whm's elemental part is largely aesthetic. Stoneskin, aquaveil and divine benison all do the same thing aesthetically. There is gonna be wiggle room.

Well, there's some merit to this. What I would view as "design progression" is more job identity, and I like how this was expressed in the PVP changes, I believe that with the latest changes, I feel that each healer is distinct in PVP, I don't find any of them more complex, although I may prefer one over another in various situations.




You're gonna have to tell the other people who responded to un-answer if I were un-ask the question lol

It's rather tricky saying "there are natural design paths" for each healer given , for example AST- I don't look at AST and say "there was a clear, well-thought out roadmap". It's a history of patches, emergency changes, rollbacks, reversals, large population, and now it's the least popular healer with yet another major design change.

Hah un-answering? this made me laugh. Good one (and quite diplomatic)