Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[Sebazy]

There's a part of me that wants to go through each of these, Aravell's (for example, "What part of change basically EVERYTHING is 'healing requirements is the only possible solution', exactly?"), Sabezy's (a very simple one would be to ask "What do you think '...as well as its mechanics' means?"), Roe's ("Did you...read what I said LITERALLY right after that? My issue was more you saying I didn't agree with it when I...DID agree with it?"), etc, showing how you guys are wrong AND gaslighting AND lying. To defend myself from your grotesque and YET AGAIN uncalled for attacks as well as show you for the awful people you are AGAIN.

Hear me out for a second here... So much of the stuff you come out with is based on opinions right? You yourself have openly stated that you didn't raid coils when they were current and whilst I'm not sure if if you did Gordias Savage, my guess is that you also didn't. That's fine, that's absolutely not a problem. I'm not trying to bash you with that, I'm trying to understand your perspective of things. Am I correct with this assumption?

The problems arise when you swing your weight around in discussions with these in content that you never actually took part in at it's peak. It's like the Warhammer comment where you come out with a random comment that's demonstrably incorrect with a simple google search. It undermines your argument and when your post has a bunch of errors like this, you end up with people like me coming along and bonking it with the 'correction' sledgehammer.

Case in point, the reason why I asked if you thought high end healers were chain casting cures in Coil is because I don't think you understand how top healers optimised it back then, and honestly I don't blame you, it was a weird time, up there with day 1 dungeon strats tbh.

Let's go with a Mr Happy video:

https://youtu.be/H75f6SgM6Sg?si=-M9i1ONjZ4eDtF3K&t=67

I'm pretty sure his healer for that was called Miunih Evans, top notch healer. If you watch in the bottom right of the screen at 1:07-1:10. Watch Miunih's cure animation closely. Do you see what he's doing there? He does this a lot through the fight and it's unfortunate it's not his PoV but if you carefully track him throughout the video, you'll see the same thing repeatedly.

Basically, he was pre casting Cures even when they weren't needed. If it got to 50% and it didn't look like the cure was going to be needed, he canceled it and restarted the cast.

Why? Because MP was the great bottleneck early on in a coil tier. Incoming damage wasn't actually all that high, however it was so much erratic than what we see now, and those spikes could flatten a tank in the time it took your GCD to cast because as you point out, we didn't have the instants and oGCDs to react in the same way we do now. Letting those casts finish would cause problems with MP and enmity, so the MLG play was to start then casting but interrupt them halfway through if they weren't going to be needed.

Remember, crits on tanks were a thing, most bosses (Maybe all?) had a mini tank buster that wasn't telegraphed and thanks to the lack of long cast times, many bosses did considerable auto attacks right the way through mechanics and tank busters. Twintainia was probably the pinnacle of this. Death Sentence in isolation wasn't the worst tank buster we've seen by far. It was the fact that it would be followed instantly by both a Plummet and an Auto Attack (which could crit). Because this is a sequence of hits, now factor in Parry/Block/Dodge odds and hopefully you start getting the picture.

The TLDR here: Healers weren't playing it super safe because healing requirements were so much higher in Coil because they honestly weren't, they were playing it safe because damage was spiky and inconsistent, resources were extremely tight, enmity was problematic. Some healers figured out that they could 'animation cancel' a cure to save MP if it wasn't going to be needed, some healers would just stand and wait.

Before you hype up coil as having these huge healing requirements, go watch a T1 prog pov, it's actually pretty grim viewing in hindsight. It's not until Caduceus suddenly strings together some crits and the tanks fail to parry/block them that things get spicy and faces get melted. Outside of those windows, it's really not the golden land even if my rose tinted glasses would like to think it is.

Compare the hood swings on Apache at 0:37 seconds vs 1:00

https://youtu.be/VZDTK1Q10GE?si=fi_6CNuLl9rYQ0Qc&t=34
https://youtu.be/VZDTK1Q10GE?si=fi_6CNuLl9rYQ0Qc&t=55

One sequence has the tank down to 30%ish HP, the other barely makes a dent taking the tank down to maybe 80%? Then you get a whole lot of not much until 1:17 when another connects and doesn't get blocked etc.

Hopefully that gives you some more insight.

[Lailani_Fey]

T1 stuff

Try it MINE with the current balancing. The fight will be over way very quickly due to party DPS inflation.
But: Healer balance remains similar. I can only recommend grabbing some PIE/SPS gear. It's a blast.

[KenZentra]

Why? Because MP was the great bottleneck early on in a coil tier. Incoming damage wasn't actually all that high, however it was so much erratic than what we see now, and those spikes could flatten a tank in the time it took your GCD to cast because as you point out, we didn't have the instants and oGCDs to react in the same way we do now. Letting those casts finish would cause problems with MP and enmity, so the MLG play was to start then casting but interrupt them halfway through if they weren't going to be needed.

Remember, crits on tanks were a thing, most bosses (Maybe all?) had a mini tank buster that wasn't telegraphed and thanks to the lack of long cast times, many bosses did considerable auto attacks right the way through mechanics and tank busters. Twintainia was probably the pinnacle of this. Death Sentence in isolation wasn't the worst tank buster we've seen by far. It was the fact that it would be followed instantly by both a Plummet and an Auto Attack (which could crit). Because this is a sequence of hits, now factor in Parry/Block/Dodge odds and hopefully you start getting the picture.

Sounds awesome, actually. In encounters like this the boss is also a threat outside of casting "Big Damage AoE Attack" or "This starts a dance of mechanics". Right now, most bosses reposition themselves into the center of a square or circle arena for mechanics, and all of their damage is pretty much predetermined. In most cases currently, the least important thing in an encounter is the boss itself. You dont necessarily have to worry where the boss is positioned, or you dont have to worry about their autoattacks.

Maybe thats not what the game should be about anymore, but sudden spikes of damage need to be reacted to which will always keep healers on their toes, especially with crits as that isnt something that can be put onto a timeline.

Not that this has to deal with Healers, but I really hate how 90% of boss arenas as circles and squares. Caduceus' arena is so unique as you need to worry about if you can easily move up and down on sections of the arena, they should do more stuff like that. The shape of the arena can influence an encounter so much, but its almost always circles and squares, I assume because its easier to plan out a fight.

And isnt that a whole thing too? Making things easier for the devs? No trash in raids cause its easier for the devs just to make the arena. 12 bosses in Pandemonium, and we only see 7 places in it (since I wouldnt count P3, P9-12). An entire giant facility full of horrid creatures and abominations created by the ancients boiled down to 7 rooms completely divorced from each other, and all circles and squares aside from P2(sorta) and P10(though the main area is also just a square).
SCH dps kit simplified because it would be easier to balance as a healer. AST cards boiled down to boring damage up cards because its easier to balance(lol) the utility of the old cards. Cross-Class stuff simplified into selectable Role-Actions and then removed aside from what was deemed mandatory and packaged into your role as your level up. Healers and tanks homogenized. Enmity management mostly removed (aside from tanks swapping). And of course, the tons of utility that wasnt just "Damage Up" or "Reduce Damage".

Sorry, kinda just a little rant that kinda ties in a bit to issues surrounding healers, but mostly just the game in general.

[Saraide]

Snip

I dont miss trash encounters before raid bosses at all. Criterion has only served to reinforce my opinion on that. I dont think they were removed because it was easier on the devs, i think they were removed because many players just didnt like them.

[SargeTheSeagull]

I dont miss trash encounters before raid bosses at all. Criterion has only served to reinforce my opinion on that. I dont think they were removed because it was easier on the devs, i think they were removed because many players just didnt like them.

Trash can be very fun if done well. It's just very poorly done in 14. The only bit of trash in the game I can think of that was interesting was the first or second pull of Amaurot where the bomb would tether the healer and would only chase and damage them until killed. Other than that, every mob in the game is just "avoid ground aoe". I don't get why the dev's don't do something like this: There are three mobs in this pack. One of them does a mini TB every eight seconds. One of them has an interruptable/stunnable spell that puts a vuln stack/defense down on the tank which it will cast every twelve seconds. The third add tethers to a DPS or healer and continuously dot's them. When any of the add's is defeated, it will spawn a tower on its body. Throw in the occasional point blank AoE or frontal cone. That's nothing cutting edge but IMO that's way more interesting than "pull eleven enemies and avoid their random vomit of ground AoE's while mindlessly burning them down.

[Saraide]

Trash can be very fun if done well. It's just very poorly done in 14. The only bit of trash in the game I can think of that was interesting was the first or second pull of Amaurot where the bomb would tether the healer and would only chase and damage them until killed. Other than that, every mob in the game is just "avoid ground aoe". I don't get why the dev's don't do something like this: There are three mobs in this pack. One of them does a mini TB every eight seconds. One of them has an interruptable/stunnable spell that puts a vuln stack/defense down on the tank which it will cast every twelve seconds. The third add tethers to a DPS or healer and continuously dot's them. When any of the add's is defeated, it will spawn a tower on its body. Throw in the occasional point blank AoE or frontal cone. That's nothing cutting edge but IMO that's way more interesting than "pull eleven enemies and avoid their random vomit of ground AoE's while mindlessly burning them down.

You are sort of describing criterion trash pulls and what I call the minibossification of trash pulls. You are putting so much effort into designing a trash pull you might aswell just make it a boss encounter.
Second trash pull in the latest criterion dungeon has 4 enemies, two with a vuln down buff (essentially immunity) and two with a damage up buff which swap everytime one is defeated and you need to kite the one you are fighting around so that you dont get caught by the patroling damage immune mobs in addition to a cleansable debuff, a stack marker, a baited aoe following it, a cast you have to interrupt and a bleed raid wide. The criterion trash pulls are by far more interesting than any regular dungeon trash pull currently in the game. I still think they are the weakest part of the experience.

[Shurrikhan]

You are sort of describing criterion trash pulls and what I call the minibossification of trash pulls. You are putting so much effort into designing a trash pull you might aswell just make it a boss encounter.
Second trash pull in the latest criterion dungeon has 4 enemies, two with a vuln down buff (essentially immunity) and two with a damage up buff which swap everytime one is defeated and you need to kite the one you are fighting around so that you dont get caught by the patroling damage immune mobs in addition to a cleansable debuff, a stack marker, a baited aoe following it, a cast you have to interrupt and a bleed raid wide. The criterion trash pulls are by far more interesting than any regular dungeon trash pull currently in the game. I still think they are the weakest part of the experience.

A trash pull and a boss pull, if given equal design weight, are both simply encounters, with the difference that one involves many units and may allow players to prune the capacity of their enemy in an order of their choosing through which units they prioritize, while boss encounters tend to feature just a single unit who may have HP based changes in abilities but rarely outright pruned capacities and therefore will often ramp up in intensity (on-mob-kill mechanics aside) rather than seeming to ramp down.

Trash is trash because its a trash design effort, regardless of whether it has one or many mobs. A well-designed encounter is a well-designed encounter because of the effort and awareness that generated it, regardless of whether it has one mob or many.

[Hyperia]

A trash pull and a boss pull, if given equal design weight, are both simply encounters, with the difference that one involves many units and may allow players to prune the capacity of their enemy in an order of their choosing through which units they prioritize, while boss encounters tend to feature just a single unit who may have HP based changes in abilities but rarely outright pruned capacities and therefore will often ramp up in intensity (on-mob-kill mechanics aside) rather than seeming to ramp down.

Trash is trash because its a trash design effort, regardless of whether it has one or many mobs. A well-designed encounter is a well-designed encounter because of the effort and awareness that generated it, regardless of whether it has one mob or many.

I remember back in the older MMOs, trash was desirable because it had a chance, and often did, drop raid level loot while you cleared. As an example, using today's setup: If your group could not clear the current boss, you could farm the trash repeatedly to get accessories or other items such as glamours or pets. Essentially trash farm that could help people better gear up or stay engaged.

[Mayhemmer]

Trash can be very fun if done well. It's just very poorly done in 14. The only bit of trash in the game I can think of that was interesting was the first or second pull of Amaurot where the bomb would tether the healer and would only chase and damage them until killed. Other than that, every mob in the game is just "avoid ground aoe". I don't get why the dev's don't do something like this: There are three mobs in this pack. One of them does a mini TB every eight seconds. One of them has an interruptable/stunnable spell that puts a vuln stack/defense down on the tank which it will cast every twelve seconds. The third add tethers to a DPS or healer and continuously dot's them. When any of the add's is defeated, it will spawn a tower on its body. Throw in the occasional point blank AoE or frontal cone. That's nothing cutting edge but IMO that's way more interesting than "pull eleven enemies and avoid their random vomit of ground AoE's while mindlessly burning them down.

[Obligatory "But dungeons are meant to be mindless duty finder facerolls!!" here]

But seriously. I'd love if at least dungeons had the occasional interesting trash mechanics like this. So long as it's not just more trash that spams an AoE every few seconds, because I absolutely abhor that, I'm down for more trash that actually does things.

[KenZentra]

I dont miss trash encounters before raid bosses at all. Criterion has only served to reinforce my opinion on that. I dont think they were removed because it was easier on the devs, i think they were removed because many players just didnt like them.

I think, when done right, they add some depth to the area you are in, for instance when look at dungeons you dont just go from Boss arena, Boss Arena, Boss Arena. There is a path (though I'd be happy if you could choose a different path from time to time) to each boss with trash. Would it really feel like we were infiltrating and ascending up the Tower of Babil if it was just Boss, then Boss, then Boss? The 2 elevator rides might not really be all that much, but they do make you feel like you are actually there and you get to see more of that location and with trash in the dungeon, it doesnt feel empty and somewhat dangerous to be in (from a lore standpoint). Aside, from how it feels, the mechanics can make trash interesting which I SargeTheSeagull mentioned also.

That all being said, I don't mind Savage not having trash, but I think normals should. Since Savage is more about clearing the boss than experiencing the raid anyways.

Tying this back into healing, it would make trash pulls (when they have more than dodge AoE mechancis) in dungeons more interesting for heals than spamming the 1 AoE spell and throwing a single oGCD per Wall to Wall.