Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[tearagion]

That is an idiotic frame of mind. Even more idiotic is using it to persistently stamp your feet at the mere mention of healers having even as many damage abilities as they did before. The developers aren't a genie in a lamp other people are going to waste your precious single wish for healers on, and they aren't stupid enough to pick a single point of feedback to consider.

[Renathras]

That is an idiotic frame of mind. Even more idiotic is using it to persistently stamp your feet at the mere mention of healers having even as many damage abilities as they did before. The developers aren't a genie in a lamp other people are going to waste your precious single wish for healers on, and they aren't stupid enough to pick a single point of feedback to consider.

...we were having a good conversation.

Regardless, I'm hardly the only one that has voiced such a concern (albeit other people in the opposite direction).

And I haven't "stamped my feet at the mere mention of healers having even as many damage abilities as they did before". Please stop with the personal attacks that are ALSO lies. I've repeatedly suggested, for example, that SCH have all of its lost SB abilities back. That's hardly "stamped my feet at the mere mention of". "But WHM!!!", so? If I'm saying absolutely to do it on a Job, I'm not stamping my feet at the mere mention of it.

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Anyway, it's also not an "idiotic frame of mind" to think that some tacked on DPS buttons would NOT be fun. I didn't find them fun when we had 2 more DoTs before, either. Some people do, some people don't. I was one of the ones that didn't. So why wouldn't I advocate against them? When I say I like EW WHM's damage rotation, I genuinely mean it. I like Misery and 30 sec Dia WAY better than what they had before in the form of 24 sec Aero 3 and 18 sec Aero 2. I don't like DoTs in general, and every healer's been slapped with them, and shorter is worse, since that means having to engage more often with a thing I already dislike. It's like on Casters, the reason I liked RDM from the time it was introduced more than SMN or BLM was because it had a more fun and dynamic rotation and didn't have the stupid DoTs.

I know I would not personally enjoy it, and I think it's fair for a person to say "I wouldn't like X, and so I'll advocate against X". And I've been more than fair pointing out I recognize some people do enjoy such things, and so it'd be nice if we had a healer Job or two that did them, as long as there was a way to escape them for players that didn't enjoy that. I'll note this is more accommodation than has ever been offered in reverse.

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Regardless, if I think it's a bad idea, that's feedback, which is what the forum is for. Should I not offer my perspective on issues while everyone else gets to? Why not?

I think everyone should get to express their ideas and their concerns, including with other offered ideas. Everyone else has that same right. The Devs have said before what they look for is people to tell them what is and isn't fun for them, and why. That's what they want from us here (insomuch as they read any of this), and that's all I and the others here (who aren't personally attacking me or each other) are doing in this discussion.

EDIT:

And I should note, for the most part, we all agree that encounter design and healing kits/potencies (of healers AND tanks/DPSers) all needs to be looked at.

It makes sense to advocate for the things that everyone agrees need to be addressed have top priority in being the focus of changes.

If two (or more) sides recognize a problem, and they agree on part of the solution, it makes sense to move on the parts that can be agreed on first since that's something everyone recognizes as a good idea.

Everyone agrees encounter design and healing kits need to be looked at and worked on. NOT everyone agrees on more DPS actions being something they want or that would be good for the game or for all healer Jobs.

[tearagion]

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my bad, I guess immediately entering any discussion about healer dps for years to tell people why it's bad and not fun to you isn't stamping your feet.

I didn't call your opinion on more dps buttons idiotic, I called thinking that we only have "one shot" at providing healer feedback idiotic as indicated by the reasoning in the second half of the comment.

Not everyone agrees that encounter design and healing kit potencies need to be worked on either lol, you can find such people in this very thread.

[Renathras]

my bad, I guess...isn't stamping your feet.

If I had done that, it could be.

The problem is I haven't done that.

I've been very consistent at pointing out some people like DPSing on healers and some do not; some healer Jobs past incarnations were better (SCH, AST) and some were not (WHM, SGE had no prior incarnation). And my own pitched idea, the 4 Healers Model, incorporates more DPS buttons and damage actions on at least one and generally 2-3 of the healer Jobs. Several times I've even said all 4 as long as one is very limited (basically take EW WHM and give it SB Aero 3 and Thin Air; that's still an additional DPS action in Aero 3).

Clearly I'm not up in arms at the very mention of more DPS actions.

Not everyone agrees that encounter design and healing kit potencies need to be worked on either lol...

PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only.

Even many of the people that want more DPS actions (e.g. in Ty's surveys) complained about encounter design, meaning an agreement it needs to be changed.

Even most of the "more DPS actions" regulars here don't oppose encounter design and kit reworks because they disagree, they oppose them because they aren't sure how you could do it retroactively for all encounters in the game's history to keep them clearble/think it's too big a task, and, for whatever reason, don't recognize or accept that this somewhat happens with old content every time there's a new Expansion (potency change and ability pruning/additions affect old content runs) or that other things have been done before in such cases (e.g. Epic Echo when the item squish happened). But the point is, they do agree that encounter design and healing/mitigation kits of Jobs are (at least part of) the problem, they just believe it CAN'T be fixed, which is why those people reject it as a solution.

People like Sebazy and Aravell, clearly no fans of mine, agree that the problem is far more than just damage kits.

While I'm sure there are probably some people that think encounter design itself is just fine, or that DPS and Tank healing, sustain, and mitigation, or healer kit overall healing and abilities are allllll just fine, I suspect they are a term I do not use often - a minority.

MECHANICS are fine, but encounter tuning, rates of damage, predictability of damage (imagine if every DPS Job had the exact same rotation every encounter, rigid and planned down to the second; that's modern healer gameplay once a fight has been figured out and everyone executes mechanics properly), and the mismatch between how powerful our healing is vs encounters and the ability of Tanks and DPSers to just clear stuff without any healers.

I think most people recognize those are problems, and not one of them is fixed by "more DPS actions/complexity" on healer Jobs, much less on all the healer Jobs even over the objections of people that don't want them.

[Katish]

PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only.

While I'm sure there are probably some people that think encounter design itself is just fine, or that DPS and Tank healing, sustain, and mitigation, or healer kit overall healing and abilities are allllll just fine, I suspect they are a term I do not use often - a minority.

MECHANICS are fine, but encounter tuning, rates of damage, predictability of damage (imagine if every DPS Job had the exact same rotation every encounter, rigid and planned down to the second; that's modern healer gameplay once a fight has been figured out and everyone executes mechanics properly), and the mismatch between how powerful our healing is vs encounters and the ability of Tanks and DPSers to just clear stuff without any healers.

I think there is where we draw our differences I cannot say something I don't know. "PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only." I mean can you observe this and speculate but even then I think observing the situation might have altercations. Nor do I agree with mechanics being fine, as the more you see a repeated mechanic the more you become used to it (that's just objective)...not to mention none of the mechanics address having a healer in particular do anything that is outside the realms of dps, and you could say just increase the rate of which damage goes out but that actually isn't a good solution because this would undermine healing potency for shielding potency (not to say it isn't a solution but it doesn't address the problem of having minut dps options because there is always a line) [and it would create something healers have never been before (which might actually throw people off the role)]. But if we were to increase the utility of the healer and create new mechanics that only healers could answer, it would stop them from being replaced and it would create a feel good feeling to answering that mechanic, because as a healer, only you could answer it. (Whatever that mechanic may be)

These differing opinions showcase something that is an obvious however, which is that everyone has a different perspective. That's why the role needs to be looked at every angle from every perspective, not just the ones you or I want to see happen.

[Renathras]

I think there is where we draw our differences...

/sigh

So, this the part where we derail the discussion again with quibbles about technicalities, is it?

Can we just not and say we didn't?

How many posters in this thread have said that ONLY healer DPS kits need to be changed and everything else is fine? Half a dozen?

How much ink has been spilled talking about how there's not enough to heal, how Tanks have too much sustain, how mitigation is outsourced to DPSers (who ALSO have too much healing) and so on? Even among people that do want more DPS actions added here, on reddit, and in the streaming community, these have been topics of discussion. It's something nearly universally recognized, by all the people opinionated enough to speak on the topic, as a problem.

So I don't stand this newfound desire to "well akshually it's not EVERYone!"

Know what else isn't everyone?

...people wanting more DPS actions.

So if we're going with the nebulous "if at least one person disagrees, it's not everyone" line of logic to oppose some ideas, then that means "more DPS actions/complexity" is just as quickly disqualified.

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I prefer an all of the above solution, personally. Whether that be a holistic, top down complete overhaul of healing in this game from encounter design to damage umpredictability to Tank AND Healer AND DPS kits to non-damage support actions and even to more DPS actions OR an all of the above by way of the 4 Healers Model (a more limited "por que no los dos?"/"why not both?" to healer Job design/kits being the only thing changed), I think this is a problem that will not be solved by just slapping a DPS rotation onto every healer Job, and I very much think that would make it worse.

But the fact is, most people who care to exercise their voice on the topic agree that the problem does not demand "more DPS actions/complexity" solution. It demands something else.

And very likely, a "more DPS actions/complexity" would not be a stopgap, it would just make things worse for a lot of people.

[Katish]

/sigh

So, this the part where we derail the discussion again with quibbles about technicalities, is it?

Can we just not and say we didn't?

How many posters in this thread have said that ONLY healer DPS kits need to be changed and everything else is fine? Half a dozen?

How much ink has been spilled talking about how there's not enough to heal, how Tanks have too much sustain, how mitigation is outsourced to DPSers (who ALSO have too much healing) and so on? Even among people that do want more DPS actions added here, on reddit, and in the streaming community, these have been topics of discussion. It's something nearly universally recognized, by all the people opinionated enough to speak on the topic, as a problem.

So I don't stand this newfound desire to "well akshually it's not EVERYone!"

Know what else isn't everyone?

...people wanting more DPS actions.

So if we're going with the nebulous "if at least one person disagrees, it's not everyone" line of logic to oppose some ideas, then that means "more DPS actions/complexity" is just as quickly disqualified.

.

I prefer an all of the above solution, personally. Whether that be a holistic, top down complete overhaul of healing in this game from encounter design to damage umpredictability to Tank AND Healer AND DPS kits to non-damage support actions and even to more DPS actions OR an all of the above by way of the 4 Healers Model (a more limited "por que no los dos?"/"why not both?" to healer Job design/kits being the only thing changed), I think this is a problem that will not be solved by just slapping a DPS rotation onto every healer Job, and I very much think that would make it worse.

But the fact is, most people who care to exercise their voice on the topic agree that the problem does not demand "more DPS actions/complexity" solution. It demands something else.

And very likely, a "more DPS actions/complexity" would not be a stopgap, it would just make things worse for a lot of people.

I am not saying the latter is okay either... I would rather them balance the entirety of the kit itself as that would be at everyone's best interest:
"These differing opinions showcase something that is an obvious however, which is that everyone has a different perspective. That's why the role needs to be looked at every angle from every perspective, not just the ones you or I want to see happen. "

I don't adhere to anyone's design philosophy, I might like ideas, but it is ultimately up to the developer to implement the needed steps. Whatever those steps may be or look like should be by feedback basis alone and interpretation, learn by feedback and adhere to the kit. Everyone's opinion matters and shouldn't be disregarded as not a solution because it could very well be a solution, might not be the best one...but it most certainly should be at least held in memory as a basis to what the kit needs, and if it's shared enough should be what the kit should aim to strive for, with fight design in mind.

[IDontPetLalas]

Snip
All of these are independent solutions that, on their own, can improve the situation to some degree, but you cannot solve the problem of one only by addressing the other. Adding more DPS will not change the lack of healing gameplay, nor will it increase the opportunities for healers to engage with healing. Pruning and revamping heals will not fill the gaping hole in healer gameplay when healing isn't needed, nor can it increase how frequently you'll need to heal either; if you weaken healing throughput in an attempt to create a greater need to heal, you risk making old extreme and savage content considerable harder, or even impossible if you don't have the throughput to keep up with that. Increasing the frequency of healing required, but it's not plausible to do this enough to justify the current healing kit bloat, nor can it be enough to eliminate healing downtime as an issue. Resolving one concern and not the others can certainly help, but it won't relieve the role of all of its issues, and may not be enough for some people who have left the role, nor enough to keep some people who are considering leaving the role.

Naturally, the best solution is to address all angles if the issue. That's a pretty daunting task that would require a lot of work. I believe it was Aravell who mentioned how starting with DPS could work to help alleviate some of the tension in the meantime, provided that other changes were also along the way. If they came out and addressed the concerns while providing a roadmap for how they plan to address them, I could be entirely content with that if I agree with their projected endstate.

Absolutely agree

That is an idiotic frame of mind. Even more idiotic is using it to persistently stamp your feet at the mere mention of healers having even as many damage abilities as they did before. The developers aren't a genie in a lamp other people are going to waste your precious single wish for healers on, and they aren't stupid enough to pick a single point of feedback to consider.

Unfortunately, while I agree with your last statement- i.e. I seriously doubt that the dev team is going to only incorporate a single segment or point of view for their design changes (unless the interns are in charge again) - well it's yet again more justification against adding them. No, "we all agree that encounter design and healing kits/potencies (of healers AND tanks/DPSers) is not within the scope of this discussion. Does he even realize how large that is? Rather it should start with want we want with healers. Yes, it impacts other jobs, and encounters- however that is a much broader topic, and I would rather that we get some changes in a shorter amount of time, planned out- in other words- a roadmap- than some pie in the sky - let us change all of the encounters jobs, etc, which would would delivered in ?? Years???