The grand return of Cleric Stance, with a twist

[Higashikata]

Yeah sure. Bring it back and give us back meaningful DPS buttons

[fulminating]

/sigh

What are you on about this time?

Enrages were tuned to where healer DPS was included before the change, they were just badly tuned towards the higher end of the spectrum, making it impossible to clear without it.

Being numerate and mildly competent is a burden that I really wish others shared. Please stop derailing threads with misconstrued walls of text that have only a passing relationship with reality. Please at least have a broad understanding of how the game is - clear a tier, do an ultimate, do mine runs idgaf just try and learn or at least understand the broad strokes. I do not think you have ever fully thought through what you're asking, please consider the knock-on effects of say requiring high heal uptime dungeons.
Thank you.

[ForsakenRoe]

As above: Your contention here is...what? That healer ability potencies are set in stone and cannot be altered? Because the only way this argument carries weight is if healer potencies cannot be changed at any time.

People say that 'we should increase healing needed, I want to heal'. I am saying that, in order to actually pressure our healing kits to the point people are asking for (eg, 80% of the GCDs we use in a given fight are healing GCDs), a couple of examples that come to mind are those two. One's a whole phase of an ultimate (and it gets to around 50% GCD heal iirc, I can't check my old runs because I don't have the 'membership' for funny number site so I can't check the archived logs), and the other is a 20ish second phase of a Savage fight. What I can say about them though, is that we'd need MASSIVE adjustments to our kit for this to have any hope of working. The MP costs atm are too high. The accessibility of AOE throughput is too high. The power of OGCDs is too high. This is a lot of adjustments, which have to be tested against old content to make sure it's still clearable (because it was designed with current healing power in mind)

I'm not saying healer potencies are set in stone. Far from it. I'm just saying that because they are not, the amount of potency we'd have to remove to actually 'burden' the kit, or how much cooldowns would have to be added to things to gatekeep throughput, would be a lot more than people think. I'm all for copypasting Holy Priest and having every AOE heal be either complete garbage potency (Holy Nova without Rhapsody), or gated by, at minimum, a 10s CD. But I expect that being unable to spam Medica might make something like Harrowing Hell or Terminal Relativity or etc enrage sequences, slightly 'completely impossible to clear'. You say 'its not hard' like it's no big deal, but it very much would be a vast undertaking of rebalancing job outputs, doublechecking that old content can remain clearable, tuning CDs and MP costs. And unlike the suggestion of 'more damage tools' where any bonus potency can just be 'well, happy coincidence, current DPS checks are a microscopic fraction easier (because the bonus potency is that, a bonus, on top of the baseline the game was tuned around already)', 'less healing throughput' could potentially mean 'we can no longer keep up with this mechanic, so we MUST adjust the mechanic'. Because the plan is to make 'healing more required', it removes 'add more healing potency/accessibility' as a solution to an encounter/job-kit mismatch issue like that, because adding more throughput to the healer to keep up with the mechanic, just puts us back to where we are now. Instead, it forces the change to be on the side of the encounter, and that means having to do this check on every previous encounter

Now, a way to do this, and it'd stand a chance of actually working, would be to have damage profiles more like Barb EX. Having a CD on your AOE healing tools might not be as troublesome to keep up with, if the damage coming out is all small hits of 10k in fairly quick succession, rather than massive hits of 90% of your HP at a time. There's 3 main ways to burden healer kits, 'hit hard', 'hit fast' or 'prevent the healer from healing'. Barb used both 2 and 3, and while 2 is fun to deal with, I've heard that too much of option 3 can be annoying, especially in a proposed design that would be emphasising GCD healing, with it's cast times and all. I wouldn't mind it, I think 'know how to heal while keeping mobility' is one of the core skills for a healer to learn, knowing when you have enough time to stand in an orange, get a heal out, and still dodge the AOE. Barb's orange AOEs are a bit too fast for that at times, but there's several times where there's time to GCD heal, even though it looks very unsafe. Like not-Pantokrator

TLDR, let's increase EX roulette healing requirements to that of P1 of TEA, so that we really do use 80% of our GCDs on healing. And at the same time, SE can have a second build of the game, where we don't do that, so they can 'rollback' the change when the complaints of 'we had to vote abandon because the healing was too much to keep up with' come in. Or not, if it turns out I'm wrong then fine, it means a more engaging game for me to play

I do not think you have ever fully thought through what you're asking, please consider the knock-on effects of say requiring high heal uptime dungeons.

I'm trying to come up with a way to 'simulate' such an adjustment to the kit on WHM, and I'm not sure it's even possible. It'd be like, do a run of EX roulette, but you have to unbind every healing ability (including Assize), and use only Cure 1 and Rapture (20s CD). And even then, I reckon you'd keep up pretty easily because Cure 1 is still 500p. Our kits are just... so obscenely strong compared to EX roulette and other content of that level, SE's made it basically impossible to be a challenge. Even wall-to-wall pulls are nothing to a semi-competent tank, because of how much self-heal/mit they have nowadays.

The whole thing would have to be burned down and recreated, 'A Role Reborn' as it were, to fix it in this manner

[Sebazy]

What are you on about this time?

Enrages were tuned to where healer DPS was included before the change, they were just badly tuned towards the higher end of the spectrum, making it impossible to clear without it.

This is such a nothing burger of a statement. What does it even mean?

Gordias and Midas's DPS checks were a result of bad testing and balancing practices on SE's part. Creator and Deltascape came after SE addressed these issues and it showed in not only in how dialled down DPS requirements were but also in the overall complexity, length and pace. Lots of things changed for healers between HW and SB, yet Deltascape was business as normal following on from Creator. There are fights that have indeed had wild healer DPS requirements, but the main offender came much later in E8S and IMO that was primarily because healers had very little else to do other than DPS in that fight. Remember, this was a fight where the adds were the hardest part of the fight to heal. By far. No I'm not even kidding.

I know you like dropping this as a trump card, but have you EVER considered that people HAVE thought about it?

Weaker heals (especially AOEs and oGCDs), more frequent but smaller damage. It's not hard. You're smart enough to know that.

Look at what Eastwall is actually saying, not whatever interpretation you're trying to pull from it.

'Make dungeons in a way that I NEED TO HEAL ALL THE TIME'

We've had this before. Remember what AST had going into Gordias? They actually HAD TO HEAL ALL THE TIME. It was hard, actually it was very hard, so much so that healer mains like Fiery Tail and Infernele Infernis failed to ever kill A3S. And let me tell you, they had plenty of talent, coming very close to landing EU first for BCOB for example. If Fiery hadn't have been too stubborn to switch off AST back to WHM I'm absolutely confident they would have at least gotten A3S down.

Again, even if we hand wave away the issues of requiring huge healing uptime, there's also the fact that our resource system just doesn't accommodate for this volume of GCD healing. Look at PoVs of people progging E12S, the amount of GCD heals it expected out of the gates and how wild the MP usage was in that fight before you got things mapped out and gear levels went up.

It's a genuine shame that there's no way to go back and experience AST as a snapshot of that period in time. It's exactly what many ask for here and man, it was awful all told.

[Sebazy]

Rather than having the healing spell fizzle, wouldn't it be better to let it go through at 100% effectiveness, but cause Cleric Stance itself to fizzle and lock out for 10sec (or however long for balance)? That way, emergency healing with Cleric up doesn't get neutered at all, but it DOES prevent you from going back into Cleric as fast, costing you some damage. Floor is less affected by misplays (a 20% reduction at certain times may well be a death sentence, what with how spiky damage is at times), Ceiling is able to know when to turn Cleric off manually to prevent 'fizzles' and maintain optimal uptime of the buff

Stolen and added to the OP along with a few of Ara's suggestions.

I like it ty!

[Aravell]

I just want anyone who asks this to go and do either P10S, and do Harrowing Hell there, or do P1 of TEA. Imagine that healing amount required, but that is now what EX roulette looks like too. That, is 'healing required in a way that means I need to heal all the time' and I don't expect it'd go over well with... well, most players, really.

That kind of healing requirement doesn't even go over well with most raiders tbh. Look at Hand of Pain skip for TEA and tank LB3 Harrowing Hell for P10S, I can guarantee that no one would enjoy that kind of healing requirements all the time.

Also, I went back to check my TEA clear on the funny site since I recently did one, seems that p1 is only about 23% GCD heal with Hand of Pain skip, probably much higher if you have to heal the Cascade at the end.

EDIT: Seems that J Waves in TEA are about 62% GCD healing uptime, people are asking for more healing required in dungeons than for J Waves, that's very interesting.

[Renathras]

I'm going to keep posting in that other thread, because people are actually presenting arguments not dogpiling on people with insults and ignoring any responses given as anything but "you don't know what you're talking about" and similar ad hominems. For example, Roe saying our abilities are so ridiculously powerful"...MIGHT be why I said "That healer ability potencies are set in stone and cannot be altered? Because the only way this argument carries weight is if healer potencies cannot be changed at any time." in reply to her and "Weaker heals (especially AOEs and oGCDs), more frequent but smaller damage." in response to Sebazy. If you're just going to ignore what I say, that's not much of a discussion...

In other words, to spell it out for you:

The way to make healing more heal focused would be to have more frequent but smaller damage AND have weaker potency heals. If damage output was what it is now but normalized (for example, instead of a single hit for 75% of the party's health every 30 sec and nothing in between, 3x 30% attacks every 10 seconds) while also cutting GCD heal potencies by 50% and oGCD healing potencies by 50-75% (such that they do either 50% or 25% of what they do now). Tetra would heal in the ballpark of a Cure 1, not a Cure 2, for example. For the oGCD focused healers (that is, the ones designed to heal primarily through oGCDs), you simply cut them all by 50%. For the ones designed to work through GCD healing, the oGCDs would be cut by 25%. Exceptions to this rule would be limited and mainly be big emergency heals (e.g. Benediction).

.

Anyway, there's no point posting to people that can't or refuse to read. You can't harp on someone fro not having experience when you aren't even reading what they're saying.

.

Posted something for you there, btw, Sebazy. Empty head or not, it should at least give you something to consider. Unless your head is emptier than you claim mine to me, anyway.

[IDontPetLalas]

The irony- yet another flamboyant exit to another thread "because people are actually presenting arguments not dogpiling on people with insults and ignoring any responses" yet his last sentence is an insult. Whoah.

Wonder why the posts might get ignored...

[ForsakenRoe]

The way to make healing more heal focused would be to have more frequent but smaller damage AND have weaker potency heals. If damage output was what it is now but normalized (for example, instead of a single hit for 75% of the party's health every 30 sec and nothing in between, 3x 30% attacks every 10 seconds) while also cutting GCD heal potencies by 50% and oGCD healing potencies by 50-75% (such that they do either 50% or 25% of what they do now). Tetra would heal in the ballpark of a Cure 1, not a Cure 2, for example. For the oGCD focused healers (that is, the ones designed to heal primarily through oGCDs), you simply cut them all by 50%. For the ones designed to work through GCD healing, the oGCDs would be cut by 25%. Exceptions to this rule would be limited and mainly be big emergency heals (e.g. Benediction).

Again, let's say you do that, and lower content like dungeons or EX trials are fun and engaging, entirely because of the increased healing required.

How do you clear J-Waves, a mechanic designed around a 300p Medica potency, with a Medica that now heals for 150p (the same as a current Medica 2 tick)? How do you heal Harrowing Hell when you're literally half as potent at healing? It would work in lower content like normal mode where things aren't a threat, but it's got the knock on effect of making harder things 'mathematically impossible' to clear. It's not a case of me refusing to read, it's a case of me having an understanding of what healing is required in higher end content right now, an understanding of basic maths (of what potency values '50% less' actually results in), and an understanding that the former was not designed with the latter in mind. It's all well and good saying 'well the healing would be faster/smaller hits' but HH is like, one hit per second already. The only way to make it 'faster/smaller hits' would be to make it hit every like, 0.5s, which isn't going to play well with your 2.5s GCD, or something like 'keep the hits at the same speed, halve their damage dealt but extend the phase to be 45s long' which, I don't think our MP is going to last that long unless you change the MP costs of things. In which case, we're suggesting a solution (MP adjustements) to the solution (extend the duration of a mechanic to keep total healing required the same) to the solution (change healer potencies so we can't just OGCD everything) to the problem (healing in low end content is trivial and boring to many players)

You say 'for the OGCD heal focused healers, cut OGCD potencies by 50%'. That means for AST, their bubble would be 250p total healing, their CO 350p total, Horoscope 100p (200 if charged), and Star 225p (360p when charged). That sounds awful. The only thing that sounds more awful, in fact, is that you'd have the shield healers be putting up shields of 160p EHP instead of their current 320p, meaning they might well not be able to meet mitigation checks. Of course, you could counteract that by increasing the percentage conversion from heal to shield (eg SGE's is 100p, 320%, it could become 50p, 640% and the shield stays as strong as currently) but again, it's a solution to fix the solution

Stolen and added to the OP along with a few of Ara's suggestions.

I like it ty!

YW

EDIT: Seems that J Waves in TEA are about 62% GCD healing uptime, people are asking for more healing required in dungeons than for J Waves, that's very interesting.

Is that including Rapture/Solace casts as 'GCD healing uptime', or is it not/a non WHM log being looked at, because if it's a WHM and Rapture's being counted, we kinda have to discount it somewhat, as the pitch posed for 'make healers heal more' seems to be to incentivize more use of Medica or Cure 3. We can already handle a lot with Rapture, and people are complaining, so as long as it remains 'solvable with Rapture' it's not enough healing required. In that sense, Rapture is like the WHM equivalent of OGCD healing

[Sebazy]

The way to make healing more heal focused would be to have more frequent but smaller damage AND have weaker potency heals. If damage output was what it is now but normalized (for example, instead of a single hit for 75% of the party's health every 30 sec and nothing in between, 3x 30% attacks every 10 seconds) while also cutting GCD heal potencies by 50% and oGCD healing potencies by 50-75% (such that they do either 50% or 25% of what they do now). Tetra would heal in the ballpark of a Cure 1, not a Cure 2, for example. For the oGCD focused healers (that is, the ones designed to heal primarily through oGCDs), you simply cut them all by 50%. For the ones designed to work through GCD healing, the oGCDs would be cut by 25%. Exceptions to this rule would be limited and mainly be big emergency heals (e.g. Benediction).

I understand what you're saying, but my opinion is that you don't understand the nuances of what you're suggesting here and even your example above isn't really accurate when it comes to mainstream content.

But lets go with your example as a baseline and see where it goes.

First off, I'm working on the assumption that you mean a 30% aoe hit every 10 seconds and not a 3x30% multi hit every 10 seconds (aka 90% of our hp every 10 seconds) as that would be absolute carnage and my inner schadenfreude would pay good money to see that in an alliance queue.

To keep it simple, we'll work with a 1 minute fight with this boss that's aoeing every 10 seconds for 30% of our HP and that our heals are cut in half. I'll be the squishiest person in the team on WHM and I'll have 60k HP for this, I'll be using numbers from my current gear to tally up with the HP and accordingly, our 10 second AoE is a 20k hit. The numbers are a little rounded, mitigation and crit are basically ignored and we are assuming a 2.5 second GCD because I can't be bothered with that. Sounds fair? That gives us 120k to heal over two minutes.

4 casts of Medica II @ 3k = 12k
20 Medica II ticks @ 2k = 40k - 52k
8 Asylum ticks @ 1.5k = 12k - 64k
3 Raptures @ 5k = 15k - 80k
1 Assize @ 5k = 5k - 85k

7 Medicas @ 5k = 35k - 120k and a free sick bag

So we're a little over 2 thirds of the way without factoring in Asylums healing buff, crits or spell speed or using any long cooldowns and we've used 7 out of 24 GCDs. If I go full filthy and make up the balance with Medica 1, that's 14 GCDs used, A little under 2 thirds.

Keep in mind this is against a boss that is endlessly tanning my scrub 60k hp backside with 20k AoEs every 10 seconds. Rather handily, that's actually aligns rather nicely with the sort of damage we take during P10 Normal's Harrowing hell sequence at it's peak, but keep in mind that this is non stop round the clock for the full duration of the fight.

Again, if we hand wave away resource issues and assume that the YoshiP has that covered as well, that's still a lot of healing and whilst again, I'd absolutely love to see it happen. My gut instinct is that I think mainstreamies will find that that sort of ceaseless healing pressure gets tiring FAST. It's absolutely fine in bursts and those bursts could certainly stand to come more frequently than they do now regardless of whatever solution SE eventually settle on, but 24/7? I dunno man, like I see you hitting 90-95% active rates in content and as such, I suspect you'd deal with it just fine, but when I see healers with some ~70% active rate asking for this, I can't help but be concerned.

*Edit* Man, I didn't even think about J Waves, that lands at right about the same sort of ballpark, probably even less than the above once you drop crit and start adding things like healing buffs, spell speed and mitigation back in to my over simplified cig packet math.

Spicy!