Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Renathras]

And you already know my position on healing requirements...

This is my stated position as well. Not a specific % mind you, but having less "95% of party health raid damage...30 seconds of nothing...95% of party health raid damage...repeat" and more consistent 50%, 30%, 30%, 60%, 30%, etc raid damage spaced more evenly through fights.

I also didn't say that oGCD heals were favored less in ARR. They mostly DIDN'T EXIST. The only oGCD heals that existed in ARR were Benediction (and wasn't its CD longer...like 5 min or something?) and 3x Lustrate per min if you gave up Soil, Energy Drain, Bane, and...Fester? As you point out, there weren't enough oGCDs to oGCD heal with, which necessitated the use of GCDs.

Also - implicitly not explicitly, sorry, though the result has been more or less that. Lilies are basically used where other Jobs would use an oGCD instead.

Another of Warhammer Online's healers was a mage that theoretically had to evenly deal damage and healing output to balance a gauge for optimal potencies but from memory it was a bit of a bust and to my memory at least, never really quite worked as intended. WOL's cleric type healer was built around a buff/debuff rune gimmick rather than direct damage.

Warhammer sounds like an interesting game. Was it one of the ones that fell due to having no end-game at launch? I do remember people praising the diversity of designs, though balance may have been an issue. I do think we should have more types of healers. The one problem with melee is that FFXIV encounters don't design for it. It's why healers are often in the ranged groups for mechanics so they don't take up a Melee or Tank's spot. We'd have to (more or less) see those mechanics come to an end/rare use for a melee healer to be viable.

Though I should note, "4 Healers Model" isn't limited to the number 4. In some fantastical world where FFXIV could have a dozen healer Jobs with all kinds of different mechanics, it'd be neat to see. I still think SGE should have been more like a RIFT Chloromancer or something, and apparently those types have existed in other MMOs (I think Lineage had a Blood Mage that worked that way, WoW's Disc kinda does, and sounds like Warhammer's healer mage did as well?)

They have existed and it seems like one could be implemented into FFXIV. I think the biggest issue right now is the community's collective insistence on balance. People are starting (in somewhat large numbers) to say they'd be fine with Jobs not being balanced...but presumably some of these same people tell their RDM players to swap to SMN, insisting the reliability and ease of use makes clears easier...so...it's kind of hit and miss and makes me wonder if the community WOULD be willing to take things that were suboptimal because the player was having more fun and stuff...

EDIT:

Can I get a doublecheck on why I got chewed out for suggesting a 0-100 gauge on WHM, with claims that it'd be 'homogenization' (despite the only other healer having a 0-100 gauge is SCH, and it works very differently from what I suggested for WHM)...

But 'a modifier that works like Eukrasia', to the point of even changing the cast time of the heal to be instant (like E.Diag or E.Prog are, compared to their non-Eukrasian counterpart) is somehow fine and not 'homogenization'?

COUPLE of things:

1) You didn't "get chewed out". I just said I thought it was unnecessary and not a good idea, and when you dug your heals in, I think I called it stupid and homogenization. It wasn't for "suggesting" a gauge. I initially responded by saying it was unnecessary and didn't bring anything useful to the table and that I personally don't like it. SPECIFICALLY, too many Jobs have a 0-100 gauge that you ONLY use in 50 unit increments, meaning for all practical purposes, it's just a "two charge" gauge. I even made that explicit when I noted SCH did have an ability that broke with that, Fey Blessing, but then they removed the gauge cost (instead of the CD, my preferred solution), removing that. [And people say I'm all the time reading into posts attacks that aren't there...]

2) I didn't mean something that works exactly like Eukrasia - I was actually thinking something like Recitation if you must know, but not as a big production, long CD ability, so more like Emergency Tactics...? The fact I'm having trouble pointing out something else exactly like it indicates it isn't like anything else, lol. Not a GCD, an oGCD, used before an ability to make it instant and remove the MP cost. Eukrasia Prognosis isn't "Prognosis but instant", it's Succor. Eukrasia Diagnosis and Prognosis both are weaker heals but apply shields, they aren't "instant cast and MP free and nourish your damage refund ability". Eu Prog/Diag don't even do that unless the shields break, and Toxicon isn't damage neutral. So it's...not really like Eukrasia at all. I blame my poor wording there, but I did say "or Recitation", didn't I? In fact, I didn't say "a modifier that works like Eukrasia" (thanks for the misquote, btw....), I said "ability like Recitation or Eukrasia". You either misread it or you intentionally left off the "Recitation" part, which...kinda completely changes the statement in either case. It may not be intentional (I know I've mistakenly read things before), but it does change the meaning. So suffice to say, that wasn't what I said nor what I meant, no.

...I've also LONG advocated for more "modifier" buttons. Before SGE even came out, I advocated for more stuff like Emergency Tactics (back in ShB I was posting about this) because I think ability modifiers like that are cool and useful to have around. It's a crying shame we don't have reason to use Emergency Tactics much because abilities like that are neat to me.

[Shurrikhan]

I also didn't say that oGCD heals were favored less in ARR. They mostly DIDN'T EXIST.

I literally just said as much. But in that case, the difference had nothing whatsoever to do with the relative punishment of GCDs relative to oGCDs. Their damage neutrality is, again, not relevant to how those two experiences differed.

Though I should note, "4 Healers Model" isn't limited to the number 4. In some fantastical world where FFXIV could have a dozen healer Jobs with all kinds of different mechanics, it'd be neat to see. I still think SGE should have been more like a RIFT Chloromancer or something, and apparently those types have existed in other MMOs (I think Lineage had a Blood Mage that worked that way, WoW's Disc kinda does, and sounds like Warhammer's healer mage did as well?)

I feel like this is half of what turns people off to your "Model". Almost any concrete ideas you put forth for it that don't explode into wild imbalance are just... 'less homogenized healers, as can be found in pretty much any other MMOs' spread of healers', which does not require a "Model" to describe.

It's like we've got 2 (decreasingly, but still-reasonable) positions nearing a cliff, "Healers should be more distinct from each other", "Healers should be more distinct from each other even if it means squishing the reward systems for more challenging play by purposely letting certain jobs do as much as others for less effort", but then finally a third position of "Healers should be as Renathras says they should," and it's damn hard to agree with the either of the first without being roped into alleged agreement with at least one step further.

Do I want the jobs to feel more different from each other? Sure.

Do I feel like diversity is the biggest issue with healers right now? Honestly, no, it's a very distant second or even third concern after content-tuning and adjustments. But, I feel that aiming for organic development of different kits (just building whatever one can out of a given theme or core mechanic and then just recursively molding it a bit further for self-synergy and a bit of further distinction and parity as necessary) can do wonders for shaking up entrenched issues.

Which is also where your illustrations of your model have previously lost me, as they seem meant specifically to pre-allocate (and thereby restrict) what gameplay each theme should be allowed to interact with instead of just leaving that up to what seems logical and synergetic for each kit's core aspects.

I'm not about to play a "DoT healer" just because I want DoTs, nor a "Buffs healer" just because I want buffs; I want the whole damn kit for each, into which the DoTs, buffs, or what have you are integrated seamlessly and thematically, as should be everything else in that kit, or that's a mission failed.
*

SPECIFICALLY, too many Jobs have a 0-100 gauge that you ONLY use in 50 unit increments, meaning for all practical purposes, it's just a "two charge" gauge.

Yet they've contributed towards in as fine of amounts little as 2% at a time (Stormblood Blood gauge). If we were to ignore generation, then even MP itself is likewise just a number of charges, with some casts consuming multiple charges at a time. By level 72+, WHM's MP (0-100%) is just a 25-charge gauge, as its lowest possible MP cost... is 400.

A centigrade gauge just writes in values in %. That's simply an intuitive display, that futureproofs fine control if so desired, rather than "homogeneity".

In fact, I didn't say "a modifier that works like Eukrasia" (thanks for the misquote, btw....), I said "ability like Recitation or Eukrasia". You either misread it or you intentionally left off the "Recitation" part, which...kinda completely changes the statement in either case.

Mate, you keep getting mad at people for simply making the nearest to sensible interpretation of what you write...

Would you consider Reassemble a "modifier skill" that would be at all like Eukrasia? Would you consider Life Surge a "modifier skill" that would be at all like Eukrasia? Do either of those "modify" the skill they affect to an extent worthy of a separate term? Does Temperance?

If you, and more importantly your reader, wouldn't normally consider other auto-crits like Reassemble and Life Surge a skill-modifying action instead of --as they function-- mere bonus throughput CDs, then yeah, people are going to focus on the one that's the actual modifier skill, especially if you're going to go on about it not being like Recitation anyways.

???

...I've also LONG advocated for more "modifier" buttons.

I would say the same but, given your responses, I can no longer assume I know what you mean by "modifier buttons" (since I wouldn't consider a mere auto-crit skill to "modify" to a degree worth a separate term), so... /shrug.

[ForsakenRoe]

1) You didn't "get chewed out". I just said I thought it was unnecessary and not a good idea, and when you dug your heals in, I think I called it stupid and homogenization. It wasn't for "suggesting" a gauge. I initially responded by saying it was unnecessary and didn't bring anything useful to the table and that I personally don't like it. SPECIFICALLY, too many Jobs have a 0-100 gauge that you ONLY use in 50 unit increments, meaning for all practical purposes, it's just a "two charge" gauge. I even made that explicit when I noted SCH did have an ability that broke with that, Fey Blessing, but then they removed the gauge cost...

2) I didn't mean something that works exactly like Eukrasia - I was actually thinking something like Recitation if you must know...

Okay so...

1: This would be the first 'iteration' of the design, were it to make it into the game. It's balanced around EW stuff, which is why Glare is 310p and everything's worked out off of that. At no point, does that exclude the possibility of new gauge spenders or builders being added. Maybe, since this was intended to be 'in an EW patch', the level 90-100 levelling would theoretically have these changes in place, and so the level 100 skill is 'dump all accrued gauge, healing for 15p per gauge point spent (up to 1500p total). Additionally, deals 60p to all nearby enemies per 10 gauge spent' (this would keep it roughly damage neutral, albeit with a tiny loss since it'd need to be 62 but I've never seen a potency that isn't a multiple of 5). When the gauge was first added to SCH, it only had Fey Union. It got Blessing in SHB. Just because a gauge seems empty when first introduced, doesn't mean it has to remain so. It opens doors for new additions, it's a foundation that can be built on. Not my problem if SE wants to dumb the gauges down ala WAR, I sure wouldn't have removed the gauge cost on Onslaught or Upheaval. In fact, I think Onslaught is one of the stupidest changes they've made. Instead of analyzing the issue properly, seeing that 'Fell Cleave is 590p for 50 (or 114 for 10), Onslaught is 100p for 20 (or 50p for 10), why don't we just reduce the gauge cost to 10, or up the potency to 200, so the lost potency is just 14p per 10 gauge instead of 114', they 'homogenized it'

2: Okay, so you want a modifier for WHM that makes the spell cost no MP, and instantcast. So it's not Eukrasia, it's Recitation+Swiftcast. Wait, no, it's Thin Air + Swiftcast, cos Recitation still gives a guaranteed crit, this wouldn't. I don't mind modifier buttons. We've got Plenary, ET, Recit, Neutral Sect, Synastry, Eukrasia, Soteria, Zoe, Krasis, there's plenty of buttons that 'change the next action in some way' with varying durations. But at some point, if SE adds a new one, it's gonna end up acting like something we already have in some way, because of how small the corner SE's painted themselves into is

Yet they've contributed towards in as fine of amounts little as 2% at a time (Stormblood Blood gauge). If we were to ignore generation, then even MP itself is likewise just a number of charges, with some casts consuming multiple charges at a time. By level 72+, WHM's MP (0-100%) is just a 25-charge gauge, as its lowest possible MP cost... is 400.

A centigrade gauge just writes in values in %. That's simply an intuitive display, that futureproofs fine control if so desired, rather than "homogeneity".

Bingo, you reference the SB DRK blood gauge, right? Where Blood Price would give like, 2 per hit taken (don't remember if it was 1 or 2, I didn't keep tankstance on past opener) and Blood Weapon 3 per attack landed (including autos)? And I suggested Glare/Stone give 1 gauge, so it's as 'fine' an amount as a 0-100 gauge can allow for without decimals. But as I note above, SE would, with the addition of a 0-100 gauge, have the freedom to expand on it with other abilities later. Move that spends 25 gauge on a shield, move that spends 'all current gauge' for a desperation massive heal that scales on gauge spent, move that generates 25 gauge instantly but has a big CD, move that generates gauge over time by meditating in the downtime, traits that cause current stuff to generate gauge, eg Asylum gives 20 over it's duration, Benison grants 5 on cast and 5 when the shield breaks, Lilybell gives 4 per pulse for a total of 20, the list goes on and on!

But I suggested 'spend 50 on a single move', so of course that's apparently how it'd stay for perpetuity (sarcasm). And yet, in SE's eyes said idea works for WAR. And RPR. And DRK. And PLD. And NIN. And we're approaching the point where it works for SAM too (but with 25 instead of 50, only the gapcloser/backstep are non-25 now). And the one job we should truly compare the idea to, the one that has a 0-100 gauge in the same role, SCH? It's 0-100 gauge doesn't even work that way. It had (and no longer has) a 10 gauge spender, and the only other use is a '10 per 3 seconds' channeled effect

Maybe I should have said 'this is a gauge that goes from 0 to 200', and doubled all the build/spend amounts. That way it's not homogenous, cos no other job has a gauge that goes to 200!

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe I should have said 'this is a gauge that goes from 0 to 200', and doubled all the build/spend amounts. That way it's not homogenous, cos no other job has a gauge that goes to 200!

Hopefully the 0-50 if the smallest addition possible is 2.

Though then people may complain about having to double it to get the percentage, as to make comparisons to gauges of other counts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And yet, in SE's eyes said idea works for WAR. And RPR. And DRK. And PLD. And NIN. And we're approaching the point where it works for SAM too (but with 25 instead of 50, only the gapcloser/backstep are non-25 now).

Tfw original gauges had costs of 10, 20, and 50 for WAR, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 50 for SAM, etc., so they actually made complete sense to have as percentile (or at minimum 20-point) gauges... But there's no decent future-proofing not worth wasting, right?

I wonder when we'll get more flex/proportionate spenders than just Apex Arrow, though (and ideally without being utterly dictated by some single threshold requirement for a follow-up skill worth more than the original shot).

[ForsakenRoe]

Hopefully the 0-50 if the smallest addition possible is 2.

Though then people may complain about having to double it to get the percentage, as to make comparisons to gauges of other counts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The main reason I went for 0-100 was to allow banking of a second use of the 50-spending skill, and so that via the damage rotation, you'd generate about 60 gauge per minute. I wanted the healing skill to be WHM's 'answer' to Earthly Star, because ES is pretty damn strong as a healing tool. So, aimed for 'once per minute', it has some slight wiggle room for 'I accidentally clipped Dia's duration', 'I spent a GCD putting Dia on a second target (which would not generate additional gauge)' or 'I dropped a GCD entirely while running to a spot for a mechanic'

Could leave it as 0-50, and not change the generation values at all, meaning it'd effectively have 'one charge' to build, meaning it's very easy to end up overcapped, but I think that would not feel so good for players. The whole point was that you could potentially have a spare use saved for a raidbuff window, that you don't need for actual healing (before your next 'charge' is built), and you can then 'waste' it to prepare the refund skills (Quake/Flood/Tornado), such that the heal is used just before raidbuffs go out, and then the refunds land inside the raidbuffs, making their higher potencies benefit from the buffs to turn that heal into a 'damage positive' GCD (like we do with Misery right now).

I just find it very funny that of all the jobs that DO have a 0-100 job, WHM getting one would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Especially when so many of those jobs have one use for their gauge, a 50 spender, and people don't bat an eye about it. Like DNC. Or MCH's Hypercharge. The nonhealer jobs get a pass because 'well that's just how it is, innit' but god forbid a healer get anything like that. Actually, maybe that's the reason for the opposition: Because it makes the healer have something that a DPS currently has, and we can't have healers being even tangentially similar to DPS, else people might get ideas on making healers have actual gameplay

[Shurrikhan]

The main reason I went for 0-100 was to allow banking of a second use of the 50-spending skill, and so that via the damage rotation, you'd generate about 60 gauge per minute. I wanted the healing skill to be WHM's 'answer' to Earthly Star, because ES is pretty damn strong as a healing tool. So, aimed for 'once per minute', it has some slight wiggle room for 'I accidentally clipped Dia's duration', 'I spent a GCD putting Dia on a second target (which would not generate additional gauge)' or 'I dropped a GCD entirely while running to a spot for a mechanic'

Could leave it as 0-50, and not change the generation values at all,

Was assuming that the smallest possible amount of generation was, say, 2 at a time, and all else was a multiple of 2, you'd make that 1, and reduce the cost from 50 to 25, to be clear. But if trying to match it to a number also of a different amount that'd make sense for the time it takes to generate, etc., then yeah, I'd stick with 0-100.

Heck, just because it's more intuitive to just jump ahead to a percent at that point, I'd stick with it regardless. Was merely joking.

[Renathras]

Okay so...

Okay, I'm not going to bother with this further other than saying:

1) I told you I don't like it.

2) I told you why I don't like it.

3) You can disagree all you want, it doesn't make me like it nor change why I don't like it.

4) I told you how it could be altered to where I would like it. You rejected that outright with no further discussion nor flexibility on your part.

5) There's no where else to discuss from there, and sarcasm and snark doesn't help convince me to change my mind.

As for the Afflatus thing - I've literally proposed this before and at no point did you deride it as a Eukrasia or Thin Air+Swiftcast clone. So that seems a new thing you're reaching for to try and insist "I'm not homogenizing YOU'RE homogenizing!" with the "I know you are but what am I" energy of a child's attempt at a rebuttal. Which has, for all of Human history, never convinced anyone of anything. (And note, if you now say "You've done that before!!!" that would...ah never mind. This is stupid. Moving on...)

[ForsakenRoe]

As for the Afflatus thing - I've literally proposed this before and at no point did you deride it as a Eukrasia or Thin Air+Swiftcast clone. So that seems a new thing you're reaching for to try and insist "I'm not homogenizing YOU'RE homogenizing!" with the "I know you are but what am I" energy of a child's attempt at a rebuttal. Which has, for all of Human history, never convinced anyone of anything. (And note, if you now say "You've done that before!!!" that would...ah never mind. This is stupid. Moving on...)

At those times I thought 'oh okay, I mean it'd 'work' I guess, but it seems like a strange way to go about getting the same result we currently have, and making WHM feel more like SGE, all in order to save a single button bind'. But you brought up homogenization as a reason to not give WHM a 0-100 gauge, so I ask 'why is my 'homogenization' bad, but yours gets a pass'. I don't particularly care if you think it's childish, and I don't particularly care if you think I am displaying 'no further flexibility'. I've already been 'flexible' on an incredibly large number of things about the idea. There are at least 7 parts labelled 'Edit' because of me having to clarify things, or seeing someone's suggestion and thinking 'yeh that would be good actually'. Your own Protect > Plenary idea is an example of one of those. Your idea of 'it shouldn't be just the damage, the heals should generate gauge too' is another. You'd know this if you were able to read the original post further than the part that says 'Dia's duration is shorter' and blowing a fuse over it

But please, don't bother with it anymore. Maybe it'll last longer than the previous time you said 'I'm done'