How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Sebazy]

I've always felt mastery of healers should be based on mastering HEALING instead of mastering a damage rotation. <...> Many people that play this game will tell you they tried healing and it was HARD, so they went back to DPS or even tanking and that they respect healer players. That means there's already an element of mastery.

Many people also struggle to maintain a 50% GCD uptime in mainstream content like alliance raids. The cold hard truth is that it's not so much that meeting baseline healing requirements is challenging (because until you get to Savage it generally isn't), but rather I'd be willing to bet they were over thinking what button to press or even simply where that button was on their keyboard. Assuming this isn't some wild situation where they were trying healing for the first time in an Extreme or Savage, I bet that as long as they had have pressed *something* that consisted of just about any GCD heal with the right target selected, they would have scraped through. There's a reason why you see so many nervous WHM's rolling Medica II after all. The mastery element comes when you start min maxing your GCDs into more glares.

For the record, the conflict is " But tell me, how does that work in solo duties? How does that work in more casual endgame content like the current Alliance raids? How does that work in intermissions in high end content? How does that work in puzzles such as Rubicant? How does that work when I'm duoing maps with a friend?" When you say "Yes, you can do a thing...but it doesn't work in any/all areas of the game", well then, you're effectively saying you CAN'T do that thing. "You can't do it in soloing, or casual endgame or intermissions or puzzles or maps", well then, what CAN you do it in? If the answer is "nothing", then...how is that different than saying you can't do it?

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying that doesn't solve the problem here and instead it just creates new problems.

Look at it this way. If Yoshida spots your post and decides that yes, increasing healing requirements is the answer, do you think that he is going to move the needle enough in an alliance raid to the point that I'm not going to be practically eating the corner of my desk in boredom and frustration?

1) The Devs have moved way from more healing requirements, so obviously they won't go back on that.

2) Despite the Devs having moved away - and made explicit statements this was intentional and that they will continue down this line of action - from more DPS actions on healers, they obviously will be willing to go back on that.

How does that make sense?[/QUOTE]

Because 2) isn't actually strictly true. Whilst yes, our DPS kits are about as simplistic as they've ever been. We're also spending more GCDs than ever before on DPS even in Savage. Until we get the day where SE actually openly and honestly tell us what their aims are with healers, we're honestly in the dark as to what they expect out of us. Frankly, I think they themselves are in the dark too, let's not forget Yoshida's test group healer getting 'retired' because they got 'too good'. If they don't want us DPSing, they are doing an absolutely horrible job of it. If they want us DPSing but want it to be as mind numbingly boring and RSI inducing as possible then I guess they are at least succeeding at that. Fun fact, even the RGB LEDs for my glare key (6) are failing at this point.

Besides, as I've said many times, I don't even think it needs to be extra buttons if SE do it right. I've championed and flown the flag for more buffing, more debuffing, procs etcetc. We don't need a full fat DPS kit, we just need *something* worthwhile to hold our attention for those inevitable times when there's nothing to heal.

Again, what would it take to make pure downtime satisfying? Let's say we don't change DPS requirements AT ALL. So you can still go through an entire 4 man dungeon only using 3-5 oGCD heals and no GCD heals at all. What WOULD it require for that person to be engaged? Roe's WHM proposal would keep them happy? Do you genuinely believe that? 1 extra GCD attack every 15 seconds and an occasional burst based on a gauge they have no control over because it's normalized to generate over time based on attacks, and you still are filling every dead GCD with Glare? Would that person be happy with that forever, or for about 3 weeks before they started complaining asking for more yet again?

As much as it's vilified, Cleric Stance was satisfying. Old AST cards were satisfying (To me at least), Old AST mechanics involving stacking and extending multiple buffs and such all at once were ultra satisfying. Wringing out obscene amounts of HPS potency from Eos so I could spend more time DPSing was satisfying. Being able to impactfully help my teammates with simple things like cleansing pacification was satisfying. Virus chains were satisfying. Crowd controlling packs was satisfying. It's sad that all these neat facets of healer gameplay are consigned to the bin.

As for complaining about it after 3 weeks, people were overall decently happy for some 4 years no?

It's easy to say "I'd be engaged" or "surely they'd be super engaged by it", but would they really? We're talking tryhards that think something like SCH and WAR are braindead. So how would they suddenly find a DPS rotation that is still designed to be less complex than either of those engaging instead of braindead? How long would the novelty last before they would find it just as boring and braindead as healers now and be demanding more, leaving us in this same problem a second time, only with a yet higher bar of "more DPS buttons/interactivity/rotational complexity" yet again?

If this were true then why didn't this happen over the course of ARR/HW? The answer is that DPSing as a healer wasn't boring, quite the opposite in fact.

And how does it address the basic problem of healers being bored because they feel redundant? How does it prevent a zero healer TOP clear? How does it prevent people making 1T+3DPS parties and clearing dungeons faster? The greater complexity presumably would still have healers doing less damage than a 3rd DPS, right? So if healing requirements haven't changed to require a healer - because that would be ...not IMPOSSIBLE but we're not doing that (we might raise healing some, but Tanks still won't need it and Curing Waltz/etc will still be more than enough to cover it)... so you still don't need healers for runs. So these healers are "more fun" (to the people that like DPSing on a healer), but their damage is still less than bringing another DPS and their healing is still not needed in encounters. How does that really fix anything?

Eh, I'm redundant queueing alliance raids solo as a DNC much of the time, doesn't make it boring though. As for No healer clears, that's an entirely different problem and as such, needs a differently solution if it's to be tackled at all. My personal opinion is that if healers weren't already up in arms, I honestly suspect it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.

I...I'm not asking this to be facetious, I genuinely don't see it as a solution that actually WORKS. It makes some people who are bored a bit less bored, but they're going to get bored again with it soon enough; the people that aren't bored will hate it and now feel like they're stuck in a game that has no place for them and doesn't need them; and encounters will still be more efficient to farm without healers and even Ultimates will still be getting cleared without healers. How is that a solution? I've called it a band-aid before, but it's barely even that, as the few people it DOES help it won't help for long since soon, they'll be bored again with the Tank/SMN level DPS rotation and be asking for more because that will still be boring for them in the end.

So in the end, it helps no one, hurts some people, and doesn't fix the underlying problems.

.... Are you actually for real with this nonsense?

I'm going to be brutally honest here with you. This paragraph is a perfect example of why you treated the way you are, there's just no nicer way to put it. Sorry.

It makes some people who are bored a bit less bored

First up, lets downplay the actual intention and goal of this. Perfect

but they're going to get bored again with it soon enough

Next, lets pull a completely baseless assumption out of the Ren crystal ball of destiny despite the fact that we have actual prior evidence of sweaty DPS hungry healer chads being generally content through the first 4 or so years of the game.

the people that aren't bored will hate it and now feel like they're stuck in a game that has no place for them and doesn't need them

Stretch Armstrong would be proud of this one sir. Remember what I said about trying to project your own personal opinions as if they were the voice of the majority? You're doing it right here. Remember that it wasn't Endwalker that fixed DPS anxiety with it's great pruning, it was Stormblood with the removal of OG Cleric Stance.

...hold off for a moment on disagreeing with me - I suspect you do - and answer this question instead: Can you at least understand what I'm saying here? Not the specific WORDS, I'm not asking about reading comprehension, I'm asking about understanding the concept of "This doesn't seem like a solution due to these reasons"?

Yes, I fully understand what you're saying, enough so to realise that it's complete tripe.

You're trying to discredit one solution for one problem because it doesn't address a different issue. Guys lets give up on free clean energy for all because it doesn't solve world hunger! (yes that's hyperbole, but that's the best analogy you're getting out of me at this hour).

You're pulling conjecture out of thin air even when it goes against historic fact, you're projecting your personal feelings onto 'the silent majority' and you're deliberately downplaying one side of the coin whilst trying to emphasise the other by way of clutching the kittens when the reality is that the flip side solution has been shown to be factually worse in the past.

[Also, I've seen people complain that healing even in difficult content like Savages is boring/braindead/they fall asleep...so I'm not sure casual content is the extent of "where the real issue with healer engagement is"? I think it's more where it's most prevalent seeing as that's the most grinded - weekly tomes and all that - content. Once you have a Savage on farm, you're spending less hours per week on it and you aren't spending days/weeks in roulettes grinding it mindlessly, so to speak. But it's still included in the problem, is it not?]

Different problem, needs a different solution. Savage progression absolutely isn't boring/braindead unless we're talking Alte Roite here. There's defo a case for it getting boring once it's on farm if you're not a spreadsheet enjoyer for sure, but again, trying to forcibly solve everything and the kitchen sink in one swoop is just making things deliberately obtuse. Savage is far easier to course correct with content adjustments because healers go into expecting the pain (And are generally disappointed if said pain doesn't turn up). History has shown us that they don't appreciate that in casual grind content, we saw it loud and clear throughout Stormblood's alliance raids especially.

Oh and since I fancy a chuckle after having to type all the above drivel:

Are you aware that the current difference between a grey WHM and an optimal WHM is about 65%? And you're saying 10% is too much? I don't understand what you want, you're impossible to communicate with. I make a point and you argue a different point and then try to gaslight me into thinking I'm wrong. I give up trying to get you to understand, either you do or you don't.

100% agree

[ForsakenRoe]

If this were true then why didn't this happen over the course of ARR/HW? The answer is that DPSing as a healer wasn't boring, quite the opposite in fact.

As for No healer clears, that's an entirely different problem and as such, needs a differently solution if it's to be tackled at all. My personal opinion is that if healers weren't already up in arms, I honestly suspect it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.

When I first started this game, I picked CNJ>WHM to start because my friend group were all playing DPS and I figured we'd need a healer (and at the time, tanking seemed scary to me). That was 2.55. One of the things I learned about the game that made me think 'that's cool' was that in downtime when there's nothing to heal, FFXIV healers can throw out damage spells, and they actually deal a fairly hefty amount of damage for a non-DPS role. This was by contrast to my other MMO experience at the time, having freshly fallen off of Snore-lords of Draenor (now THAT's an expansion with a lack of content), which had implemented some changes to damage profiles such that 'deal damage in downtime' was more 'possible', but as with MMO playerbases when changes occur, the players had not adapted to it yet. So there, my experience of healing was 'heal, and if no healing is needed, stand around and wait for some'.

When I started this game again on a new account in 3.2, I decided to grow a metaphorical pair, started as GLD to kill the 'tanxiety', then picked up NIN and SCH because I had heard 'they're hard to master'. And again, one of the things that made me enjoy SCH was the idea that in downtime, I'd use damage to help kill enemies faster. That the fairy wasn't just 'a conduit for some of the healing skills to come from', but a powerful ally whose healing abilities opened up time windows to deal damage safely. I enjoyed healer so much in those days, that by the time I had reached HW, I was 58 on SCH (lots of levelling/MSQ roulettes), and as soon as I reached HW I swapped to AST and mained it for the HW story. By the time I had caught up to the current end of the story (3.3 released by then), I had both SCH and AST at 60. When I decided to make an alt to help a friend's static (and not grief them on loot), I just bought a skip. I'm normally someone who'd rather level a class manually than spend money on a skip, because I detest the idea of paying for a game, and then paying a second time 'to not play it'. But I don't think I'd be able to push myself to get through the story a second time, not with healer gameplay being how it currently is

But enough about me, and more about no-healer runs. I don't remember so much complaining about how 'healers aren't needed' when that one gamer solo healed TEA as a Noct AST (and mouseclicked every button, including Malefic), it was mainly 'amazing that you could handle the HPS checks with only one healer, and in shield mode too, grats! (also please keybind your abilities)' iirc. Part of the reason the TOP run was so egregious was because healers were already feeling 'forgotten by the devs', we'd just come off of the tier which mangled the role population (Abyssos), but also, there is a mechanic in TOP that literally mandates two healers participate in the fight: Magic Number. And despite that 'hard requirement', the fight was cleared because it turns out the 'hard requirement' enforced by that mechanic was not quite as 'hard' as it should have been. As people have said elsewhere, if the shoe were on the other foot, and the fight were cleared with any number of tanks and healers, and zero DPS (because someone found a way to ignore the enrage's DPS requirement), there'd have been an absolute meltdown on reddit and such

[TheDustyOne]

When I first started this game, I picked CNJ>WHM to start because my friend group were all playing DPS and I figured we'd need a healer (and at the time, tanking seemed scary to me). That was 2.55. One of the things I learned about the game that made me think 'that's cool' was that in downtime when there's nothing to heal, FFXIV healers can throw out damage spells, and they actually deal a fairly hefty amount of damage for a non-DPS role. This was by contrast to my other MMO experience at the time, having freshly fallen off of Snore-lords of Draenor (now THAT's an expansion with a lack of content), which had implemented some changes to damage profiles such that 'deal damage in downtime' was more 'possible', but as with MMO playerbases when changes occur, the players had not adapted to it yet. So there, my experience of healing was 'heal, and if no healing is needed, stand around and wait for some'.

I remember back when I started in SB, even though my primary job was PLD, when I made my current character, I wanted her to be a healer, so I started her with CNJ and picked up ACN along the way for SCH. Even early on, I was expecting to have to be constantly healing because I "only had 3 or so attacks". I got proven wrong fairly quickly, but liked that I had that downtime to throw stones and suffocate the mobs with Aero in between topping up the tank. I remember a tank back in a lvl 50 dungeon being surprised that I was actually using Holy on large mobs, getting that long cast off in the middle of a large pack felt good. I had a decent enough time upkeeping Aero and Aero III between Stone casts, but it did feel a little lackluster once I got to higher levels.

SCH however was a different story, I had 2 extra DoTs to use, and I loved making the most out of my Aetherflow between Lustrate/Indom uses and Energy Drain or Bane. It was very fun to keep those DoTs rolling, and incredibly rewarding when I took that risk on Energy Drain usages, especially when I got unlocked Quickened Aetherflow. WHM felt anemic after that, WHM had to rely on basic heals that didn't feed back into its main gameplay loop, and only had 2 DoTs and a nuke, it was no wonder I thought that people complained about it back then, that it had no identity apart from "make green number bigger". How much cooler would it have been if it followed in BLM shoes and had a focus on long cast times, managing instant casts for that needed movement, and a healing loop that fed back into that damage loop? If SCH could do it with its oGCD heals, why not a healer that wants to use its GCD heals? ShB, for all its faults in healer design, at least did that right in my opinion.

WHM I think only needs like 2 more DPS spells before I'd say it's at a stage where I'd be happy with it. I memed a bit on the healer forums with a WHM rework that copied BLM's homework, turning Astral Fire and Umbral Ice into a healing stance and dps stance respectively, but I liked the idea that Banish gives 3 buff stacks that lets you use Glare and sometimes procs Banish III, so the base filler becomes Banish > Glare x 3 > Banish / III > Glare x 3, etc. I then had Dia change from a DoT to a cooldown with charges to make it a movement tool and I'd honestly be happy with that kind of rotation, simple, but still engaging.

[Saraide]

snip

He's so clearly not arguing in good faith and the only person who seemingly doesnt realize this is himself. He even thinks the wesk alber thread was made in good faith.