How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Mayhemmer]

Because I was replying to you, not them?

Also also: Trying to make a conversation about a person (me and people taking me seriously or not) is bait, and one I'm not going to indulge further.

OP presents their desire to see healer damage toolkits become more complex.

Poster A dismisses the idea that it is needed and highlights an off-topic issue.

I point out that fact that it's a widely requested change.

You hold Poster A's dismissal on a pedestal before admonishing me for dismissing their off-topic concern.

I'm not baiting you. I'm pointing out that it comes off as a lack of self-awareness.

There ARE, absolutely, people that want more damage buttons.

There ARE, absolutely, people that do not.

Both groups should be addressed. Trying to appeal to authority fallacy or the like (which is what the "veteran healers" argument is), or attacking people pointing this out, is not a winning argument. Worse, it does nothing to address your concerns because it leads to us all bickering instead of agreeing.

You could change the term "veteran healer" to any variation of "person who has long-term experience with healers" and their feedback and desires would not change. It is just a synonymous term in this scenario.

[Renathras]

Please see the healer forums for this conversation, which we've had about eighty times now. TLDR: Give WHM seraph strike,

What? o.O

Out of all the discussions, "Seraph Strike" is probably the least useful thing possible. Not to mention a ton of people would hate it. It's the one ability they have in PvP that I really hate, for example. And in practice, it's just "another Presence of Mind".

Sometimes I can’t help but wonder if the reason devs are so hesitant to give new dps abilities to healers is because everyone is so militant about it…

Hm...could be true, honestly.

I agree that that's what the game is. But at least according to the man at the top, it's not what the game is supposed to be. Yoshi-P has gone on the record numerous times (in 2017 and 2021) saying that in group content, there is no expectation that Healers do damage and that for balancing purposes their DPS is assumed to be zero. And since those times, he has never said anything to the contrary. So if that's his stated design goal, and the highest difficulty content in the game leaves enough time to spam DPS spells that healers get sick of it, then I would say that there are some tuning issues there where the design goals aren't quite being realized.

This. This post should have ended the discussion. It's one of the posts here that isn't disconnected from reality.

The stated design goal is at odds with the current encounter design for healing and healer kits.

And I'll say again, no matter how many times people say "It always was this way" it WASN'T always this way. It wasn't in ARR. It became that in HW (which is the first time Yoshi P on record said they balanced with 0 healer DPS in mind), and the Dev response? Remove Cleric as a stance and reduce DoTs/damage buttons (going into SB for WHM and AST, and honestly SCH, they just got some of theirs back), indicating that was clearly NOT the design goal.

And as we've seen nothing since to say otherwise, the trend continued with the ShB DPS kit gutting, and the Devs doubled down on that in EW and have made no indications of changing, the logical conclusion is they DON'T want healer gameplay to be all about damage dealing. While people can argue that is what it is/has become, it's clearly not the design goal/intent. Meaning if anything is to change, it would be to change things so that they better match that design intent.

If I was made queen I'd make it so that overhealing provided a party dps buff. Synergizes with party mitigation, makes mana and resource management more engaging, doesn't alienate "pure"healer players whilst providing another avenue for affecting party dps.

That's...kind of an interesting idea. Though I suspect hardcore types would oppose it since it would "remove fail states/encourage bad play" or some such.

...

This still reads like bait.

Instead of just saying "You're right, I overstated my position", you're trying too attack me for NOT attacking someone else.

As for "veteran healers" - again, this includes people that don't want more damage. It's not a monolithic group to begin with, and many are talking about specific content or engaging with content with a specific level of experience, neither of which is applicable more broadly. In either case, it's used as an appeal to authority fallacy to bolster an argument.

The better way to say it is as I did - some people want more damage buttons and some do not - because both groups have "veteran healers" and non-veteran healers among them and advocating for them.

Anyway, it's an aside.

They had a problem with something OP said. You had a problem with something they said. I had a problem with something you said. It's the circle of life.

In any case, it's not productive discussion, so I'm moving on from it. I'm just asking you to not overstate your case or try to artificially inflate it, no more and no less.

[Katish]

What? o.O

Out of all the discussions, "Seraph Strike" is probably the least useful thing possible. Not to mention a ton of people would hate it. It's the one ability they have in PvP that I really hate, for example.

The stated design goal is at odds with the current encounter design for healing and healer kits.

And I'll say again, no matter how many times people say "It always was this way" it WASN'T always this way. It wasn't in ARR. It became that in HW (which is the first time Yoshi P on record said they balanced with 0 healer DPS in mind), and the Dev response? Remove Cleric as a stance and reduce DoTs/damage buttons (going into SB for WHM and AST, and honestly SCH, they just got some of theirs back), indicating that was clearly NOT the design goal.

It was always this way, it's just the devs are out of touch with how the job is played. Just because the dev disagrees, doesn't mean it wasn't. I mean their answer to a person that became a good healer was to replace them...Also I think it's unfair to bring pre-heavensward as an example against that statement because for one we didn't even have a roster of jobs doing the same thing, for two jobs were still being introduced for certain classes (we didn't even get summoner and scholar until 2.0), and for three it was the rebuild phase of the game I would argue (I would compare it to an early access game in those stages, having the bones but not being the end all). Heavensward being the first major expansion would/should have indicated the product being more finalized (which is why the dps skills being removed later on would be highly unfavorable instead of just redesigned).

Personally like presence of mind and although not a fan of Seraph Strike as well it would still be "something". Think we just need more dps spells that break the monotony of glare spam under PoM preferably with longer cast times so spellspeed actually does something.