If Healers had Tank rotations, what would they be?

[Renathras]

When people say "like tanks" why does it have to be a complete 1:1?

...because that's kinda what "I want A to be like B" tends to mean?

It isn't 1:1 right now but is already VERY SIMILAR (as I've pointed out comparing WHM to WAR), and clearly that isn't good enough.

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The point I'm trying to make here is this is yet another canard. People saying "I want healers to be more like tanks" don't actually mean that. The reason that people have trouble reaching compromise and consensus - irl, in politics, in game design - is when people aren't being completely truthful/honest about what they want, or try to downplay what they want. For example, suppose you want healers to have DPS rotations like MNK or BLM. If you say "I want healers to have a rotation more like...tanks", then people might point out or make suggestions for ideas that are like WAR (a tank), which you will then reject/be dissatisfied with because...that wasn't what you wanted.

Sometimes - often, even, I think - when people do this, it's not being intentional duplicitous. It's kind of like that natural tendency people have to use hyperbole or exaggeration. It's true some people do so intentionally, but most it's probably subconscious to downplay what they really want because their mind thinks offering a "softer/more moderate" version is more palatable to people.

But the problem is, when other people are taking them as honest at face value and offering them what they're asking for, but it isn't what they actually want.

The first step, then, is to break out what people actually want by showing them what they're asking for...isn't what they actually are wanting. They actually want something else. So they need to say the things they really want. This does two important things. First, and most importantly, it means that compromises can be suggested that actually address what they really want. Secondarily, it can show in some cases when what they're asking for really isn't reasonable.

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As for your very last sentence: "Depends on who you ask."

100% why I push the 4 healers thing. Because there's not really a good way to address people that want different things in a game/system that doesn't have specs customization otherwise.

[AmiableApkallu]

...because that's kinda what "I want A to be like B" tends to mean?

It isn't 1:1 right now but is already VERY SIMILAR (as I've pointed out comparing WHM to WAR)

In a word: No.

When someone says, "I want A to be like B," what they mean is that B has characteristics X, Y, and Z that they'd like either to be present in A or to be strongly reminded of by A's actual characteristics. Importantly, those characteristics might differ from person to person. If I tell you that I'd like a dinner that's like chicken soup, but not actually chicken soup, do you know what that means? Does anyone, unless I elaborate further?

For example, I went back to this thread's original post, and were I to flippantly respond to the WHM vs. WAR comparison there, it'd be with the Luke Skywalker meme, "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong." The differences you seemingly devalue are the ones that cause me to choose WAR (or any other tank) over WHM (or any other healer) when doing, say, solo content (which would be FATEs these days). Those differences are such that while I might not accuse them of being the height of intellectual stimulation, I'd easily give them a try on WHM over what WHM is currently.

[Renathras]

I've already said what I would want for the healers, many times. Your personal preferences of design mean that, despite me saying 'I want healers to have a kit approaching (not even fully reaching) tank complexity', you perceive such changes as DPS level complexity.

No, I don't. And that should be so clear by now that it's a lie for you to say it.

I've shown what "tank level complexity" would be, and it's not what you want. So what you want is clearly not "tank level complexity".

Also: Lest you forget, SMN is a DPS Job. By definition, that is the floor of "DPS level complexity".

I think my bigger issue with some of your proposals is they're clunky for the sake of clunky.

I want healers to have engaging damage options for the stretches of time when no healing is required.

And what is "engaging"? Can you define that? And I mean...like very clearly and precisely. I know it's one of those "No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it" things, but no one can make suggestions based on things that aren't defined. For example, I find the healing downtime rotations right now "engaging", but clearly they aren't to you. So what would be? Is WAR's rotation engaging? SMN's? Would a simple 1-2-3 rotation and discarding the DoT be engaging?

In a word: No.

When someone says, "I want A to be like B," what they mean is that B has characteristics X, Y, and Z that they'd like either to be present in A or to be strongly reminded of by A's actual characteristics.

But...it...is.*

That's kind of my point. That and this:

Importantly, those characteristics might differ from person to person.

This is also the point I'm trying to impress on people.


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EDIT:

*More precisely on this:

As I've laid out - and part of the reason for the 1:1 comparisons - is that WHM's overall kit IS relatively similar to WAR's. The SPECIFIC differences are that WAR has a 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1, and a -4 that requires 1-2 before it instead of -2 and which DOES stack and CANNOT be applied to multiple enemies. Other than that, most things are 1:1 other than Infuriate, which few people actually min max and, in practice, is just used on CD (1 charge) to keep the CD rolling.

These are not large changes, and some (Eye) are actually easier/less management than WHM's counterpart, leading to a comparable overall level of complexity.

As such, the only really significant differences I can see are the 1-2- part of the combo and Fell Cleave being an attack instead of a defensive CD (in the sense that Solace/Rapture being "heals" would, in this parallel, need to be defensive abilities on WAR).

So then I would say "If that is the distinction that matters - since everything else is the same - then what you're asking for is a 1-2- combo, Dia to be a self-buff that stacks to 60 instead of a DoT, and Solace/Rapture to be attacks instead of heals"?