If Healers had Tank rotations, what would they be?

[BRVV]

Yay... A 1-2-3 Combo. The thought of that simply ferments my yeast.

Press "F" to not fall asleep

[ty_taurus]

Press "F" to not fall asleep

[TheDustyOne]

Healers would get a 1-2-3 for single enemies and a 1-2 for groups

At least more than currently. At least combos.

[ASkellington]

People keep bringing up "healers should have rotations like tanks" and shoot down that they effectively have something very similar to WAR.

When people say "like tanks" why does it have to be a complete 1:1? That's why I asked my question by the way, but more to the point - actually LOOK at a tank's kit. Look at how many mitigations they have including role actions - their actual "job/role". Then look at their DPS actions.

And ultimately - look at how encounter design works for them.

All of the mitigations have various strengths and recast timers that (even in a normal dungeon situation) don't always line up for a tankbuster. There aren't various tankbusters that hit at different strengths (sadly) for you to "pick the best one" based off the CDs you have up, but it does it's job. And when the mitigation requirement is filled they have a dps rotation that is interesting enough to occupy their time since they don't have to move the boss to X position, don't have aggro management etc.

Now compare that to their "sister" role of healers:

We have massive amounts of healing tools we don't need. Quite literally every tool we gained in EW and some we gained in Shb we don't even NEED to use in the vast majority of content. We have no secondary job to serve: no managing of buffs outside of SCH/AST (and even then its on a 15s CD), no managing of debuffs, no mana management, no CD management because all our tools have a short recast timer (GCDs) or are on the 60s recast timer that FOR SOME REASON is around the time a raid wide is up so we use the same damn tool that also is instant cast and costs NO MANA.

And our "reward" unlike tanks isn't a burst rotation akin to Fell Cleave etc but amounts to a DoT and a one button press that all but 1 get at level f-ing 4.

But Toxicon and Misery I hear. But nothing. Ah yes, a "reward" system that doesn't do its job properly because they're locked behind HEALING that we don't need to use instead of being an option to use when we have nothing to heal.

What you're failing to understand despite having tried to explain it to you multiple times at this point is thus:

if tanks can do their job and have more than a DoT nuke rotation, so can healers.

Does it need to be a 1-2-3? No. CAN it be a 1-2-3? Yes. Do we WANT a 1-2-3? Depends on who you ask.

[Renathras]

When people say "like tanks" why does it have to be a complete 1:1?

...because that's kinda what "I want A to be like B" tends to mean?

It isn't 1:1 right now but is already VERY SIMILAR (as I've pointed out comparing WHM to WAR), and clearly that isn't good enough.

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The point I'm trying to make here is this is yet another canard. People saying "I want healers to be more like tanks" don't actually mean that. The reason that people have trouble reaching compromise and consensus - irl, in politics, in game design - is when people aren't being completely truthful/honest about what they want, or try to downplay what they want. For example, suppose you want healers to have DPS rotations like MNK or BLM. If you say "I want healers to have a rotation more like...tanks", then people might point out or make suggestions for ideas that are like WAR (a tank), which you will then reject/be dissatisfied with because...that wasn't what you wanted.

Sometimes - often, even, I think - when people do this, it's not being intentional duplicitous. It's kind of like that natural tendency people have to use hyperbole or exaggeration. It's true some people do so intentionally, but most it's probably subconscious to downplay what they really want because their mind thinks offering a "softer/more moderate" version is more palatable to people.

But the problem is, when other people are taking them as honest at face value and offering them what they're asking for, but it isn't what they actually want.

The first step, then, is to break out what people actually want by showing them what they're asking for...isn't what they actually are wanting. They actually want something else. So they need to say the things they really want. This does two important things. First, and most importantly, it means that compromises can be suggested that actually address what they really want. Secondarily, it can show in some cases when what they're asking for really isn't reasonable.

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As for your very last sentence: "Depends on who you ask."

100% why I push the 4 healers thing. Because there's not really a good way to address people that want different things in a game/system that doesn't have specs customization otherwise.

[Renathras]

As far as the ideas themselves: It's really hard to compare the two. As much as people call Tanks and Healers "The Supports", they really are fundamentally different, depending on encounter design. Outside of ARPGs, there's no "useable at any time standard defense" for Tanks. ARPGs have "raise shield" (e.g. Oblivion) that you can do at any time, but tab-targeting MMOs tend...not to. Instead, they have various defensive abilities with different CDs that they cycle between.

Healers, by contrast...don't quite work like that. While they CAN (FFXIV high end healing is oGCD weave based using CD heals), it often isn't (lots of MMO healing is using "spamable" heals based on need; in FFXIV terms, it would be if you used Cure 1, Cure 2, and Medica for your baseline healing). Encounter design in FFXIV doesn't require that as much anymore because damage has changed (since ARR) and healers have so many oGCDs with CDs. But regardless, the simplest form would be a 1-2-3 combo with an upkeep buff instead of a DoT (basically WAR), an oGCD to weave, and a CD to use, oGCD heals to weave, and probably some "backup" GCD heal baseline.

So for the sake of argument, it would looks something like (for WHM):

Stone-Aero-Water (1-2-3 combo) + Dia (-4 self-buff, stackable to 60 sec); Holy-Glare(?) (1-2 AOE combo); about a half dozen oGCD heals (WAR in this case having Vengeance, Holmgang, Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting/Nacent, Bulwark, and Shake would be similar in effect to something like Lilybell, Benediction, Benison, Tetra, and Assize/Asylum); some 1 min output CD (Presence of Mind), something that builds to a big strike (Afflatus), the big strike itself, triggered by using the 1 min CD (Misery), and then probably have Cure 1 and Medica 1 (and Raise) as their backup stuff.

A not 1:1 similar thing would probably be...well, similar. Remove glare, remove Dia, Cure/Medica already have no parallel. But in effect, WHM being "more like tanks" (just using WAR as "the other easiest Job") would essentially look something like that. Basically, WHM as it is today, but with a 1-2-3 combo, Dia not being a DoT, and probably something like Fell Cleave to burn gauge on.

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So I guess my point is:

Do you guys want healers to be more like tanks (the above) or more like DPS?

Because those are not the same things. WHM as "more like DPS" would be more like probably SMN (which you guys dislike but might accept on a healer) or maybe RDM. I know some people fantasize it being more like BLM, but that wouldn't work well on a healer in general, and if it as used on any healer, it would be the hardest, most complex one (which...would sound more like SCH?)

[ForsakenRoe]

I've already said what I would want for the healers, many times. Your personal preferences of design mean that, despite me saying 'I want healers to have a kit approaching (not even fully reaching) tank complexity', you perceive such changes as DPS level complexity. You ask the question again and again but the answer does not change

If you truly believe that a WHM damage kit, where you press Banish every 6th GCD, Dia every 5th, and Glare when you can't do either, or a SCH kit with a 21s and a 15s DOT re-added, is 'DPS level complexity', A: I wonder what you make of actual DPS rotations like MNK or NIN's opener, and B: that I can create supposed 'DPS level complexity' with just three buttons will be taken as a compliment. And that's not even mentioning the fact that I'd leave SGE almost entirely untouched in it's damage kit, only changing Toxikon

[AmiableApkallu]

Do you guys want healers to be more like tanks (the above) or more like DPS?

How about: None of the above. (Unless I'm not included in "you guys." I have no idea who all that's actually supposed to refer to. It's not as if there's a Gnath hive mind hanging around these forums...)

I want healers to have engaging damage options for the stretches of time when no healing is required.

I want dungeons and trials and raids to dial up the damage and mechanics a notch or two, to better remind healers that they are, well, healers. (I mean, ARR normal mode content has a certain feeling of "dangerousness" that more recent content does not. /two cents)

[AmiableApkallu]

...because that's kinda what "I want A to be like B" tends to mean?

It isn't 1:1 right now but is already VERY SIMILAR (as I've pointed out comparing WHM to WAR)

In a word: No.

When someone says, "I want A to be like B," what they mean is that B has characteristics X, Y, and Z that they'd like either to be present in A or to be strongly reminded of by A's actual characteristics. Importantly, those characteristics might differ from person to person. If I tell you that I'd like a dinner that's like chicken soup, but not actually chicken soup, do you know what that means? Does anyone, unless I elaborate further?

For example, I went back to this thread's original post, and were I to flippantly respond to the WHM vs. WAR comparison there, it'd be with the Luke Skywalker meme, "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong." The differences you seemingly devalue are the ones that cause me to choose WAR (or any other tank) over WHM (or any other healer) when doing, say, solo content (which would be FATEs these days). Those differences are such that while I might not accuse them of being the height of intellectual stimulation, I'd easily give them a try on WHM over what WHM is currently.

[Connor]

Monkey paw result:
Healers gets a 1-2-3 combo. It’s for their healing spells. Freecure for all!