Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Zairava]

Skill issues should be for high-end content, not dungeons. What's wrong with every job in a role having equal footing in casual content. If I want to play DRK in dungeons, I should be allowed to without I want to without being told I'm griefing the party for playing it and told to use trusts instead. The meta shouldn't exist in mandatory content.

You would be reducing the skill floor for high-end as well. If you want it to be that homogenized every single job would need to perform the exact same strengths on every tank. There will always be a meta. It is an unavoidable truth in every single MMO or RPG you play. There is no avoiding it.

I play DRK all the freaking time in nearly every form of content and never get told I'm griefing the party, and never get healers that dip purely because I'm playing Dark Knight. This is the most casual of content so if anyone honestly is telling you that you're griefing the party they're just being an asshole and you shouldn't be taking them seriously.

[MikoRemi]

Skill issues should be for high-end content, not dungeons. What's wrong with every job in a role having equal footing in casual content. If I want to play DRK in dungeons, I should be allowed to without I want to without being told I'm griefing the party for playing it and told to use trusts instead. The meta shouldn't exist in mandatory content.

Unfortunately in the attempt to keep jobs "unique", people want to keep some of the associated negatives while trying to hurt the other jobs that are doing fine. Bit of a lost cause here I'm afraid.

I do want DRK to get better though, and at least we have some people with stronger voices outside the forums who will give DRK a little boost without tearing down anyone else. It's how it is when people aren't used to games that offer nerfs like candy on Halloween and don't understand how it not only hurts but tends to not end after the first touch. Let's hope by Dawntrail that there will be some good upcoming abilities!

[Zairava]

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner, you'd get complaints since Bloodwhetting is out, it exists, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. It would undoubtedly make things worse, but let's assume it's just like normal in dungeons. Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then. The only complaints I hear either way are just portions of the forums, nobody else asks for WAR nerfs.

I'm referring to after they made it so you could use Nascent Flash without a partner, it was near universally agreed that it should've been usable by yourself from the get-go.

You aren't going to see much because the vast majority of people: a)Are silent and will leave or stay without providing thoughts b) don't care and just play it to play it

Good for you, if I'm gonna repeat content over and over for leveling or otherwise, I'd rather not waste mine or anyone else's time when running content. Considerations for work and school and all that jazz. Unfortunately the majority of the playerbase don't have that mentality so we get some bad runs. You can also only kick so much until you get a group of friends that fight back against the kick, so good luck with that especially with most players not paying attention to others much. Time wasted is time wasted at the end of the day.

I don't know if you thought I meant just to do it to anybody underperforming but that isn't what I meant. I was talking about people griefing the party and refusing to actually being a detriment.

The idea was great, but the execution unfortunately lead to player responsibility to manage aggro, MP, TP and all that jazz which if you are indeed a SB player, you cannot tell me with a straight face that people were doing that the majority of the time. Most players can't even handle using Diversion let alone any actual "complicated" buttons.

Aggro Management is controversial, I enjoyed it personally but I doubt they'd ever try to revamp it. I will repeat that TP deserves to stay in the grave, but I remember seeing that actively, people would have macro's for requesting MP/TP. They weren't complicated they quite literally explained themselves, Mana Shift really did not have any good reason to be removed.

Literally just the front page has a fair amount of DRK posts. Yes you could make DRK's defensives work ok because it's a dungeon at the end of the day, but besides the sustain well pull back to Dark Mind once more. In an age where Addle can mitigate both physical and magical damage, PLD can block magic with their shield(used to not), and most tanks can mitigate all damage, why does DRK have to be the magic tank again?

Again, could just slap 10% flat mit on Dark Mind or something of the sort.

Again part 2: Because that's Dark Knight's niche. Remove that and you're homogenizing it further.

Unfortunately in the attempt to keep jobs "unique", people want to keep some of the associated negatives while trying to hurt the other jobs that are doing fine. Bit of a lost cause here I'm afraid.

I do want DRK to get better though, and at least we have some people with stronger voices outside the forums who will give DRK a little boost without tearing down anyone else. It's how it is when people aren't used to games that offer nerfs like candy on Halloween and don't understand how it not only hurts but tends to not end after the first touch. Let's hope by Dawntrail that there will be some good upcoming abilities!

If you consider me actually needing to monitor my defensives and put some slight amount of effort into surviving, thus being more engaged in my kit "Negative", then yeah sure I guess. I'd like to have the healer need to heal me, because, ya know, they're a healer.

If you're going to give me some sort of sustain on DRK, make it like Death Strike on WoW. While I'm not entirely for merging Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain, they could do it with that in mind.

I rarely call for nerfs to anything, but WAR's dungeon sustain is so powerful it actively hinders the enjoyment of the job for me, so yeah, I'm going to put my voice in there to revert it to Shadowbringers. (and since the clarification was needed just before, AFTER they made it so that you could use it without a partner.)

[MikoRemi]

Snip.

Refer back to the point of; " Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then".

Meanwhile the complaints that are here rarely translate over for better or worse, although wanting to bring something back tends to work. Hello Scholar's Energy Drain.

If Cure I spamming wasn't griefing, if not using your role actions wasn't griefing, when somehow seeing the same thing 4+ time in a row after being explained time and time again doesn't somehow get across, when melee's refuse to AoE on groups of enemies, I'm not quite sure what else there is to it. I suppose you can throw in the odd RDM in early content where your tank stance wasn't available yet ripping aggro from you. Thankfully you already mention that in your post.

NA can barely handle markers let alone macros. Assuming you didn't get the people who turn chat off or tunnel vision of course. Not to mention communicating to the people who don't want to use those skills in the first place just leads to falling on deaf ears.

So you're ok with Dark Mind getting better, yet you also say removing DRK's "niche" would homogenize it further. Yeah, I want it to be better. This isn't even niche for the sake of being niche, you're just asking for a worse tank at that point. Might as well have PLD's "niche" of not being able to block magic back. Or how Berserk used to give Pacification as a "niche" thing that required Esuna. Or DRG's niche of dying easily to magical raidwides. Maybe even DRK's old Living Dead just to be the tank with the worst invuln for its standout "niche". Just mitigate all damage like a normal tank without any terrible downsides.

At that point one can spread out and figure out how to make it do good stuff in its own way. Again with Blood Price healing back 50% damage taken per hit, it wouldn't full heal but it'd be quite strong on slowing down the death of HP which combined with shields could make it purely devastating on top of the magical burst it offers. Lean into the MP management like usual but keep a general kit. We all have things like Rampart after all, and it was certainly "niche" when DRK's Shadow Wall had an extremely long cooldown for no reason compared to things like Sentinel or Vengeance. Were all tanks, but WAR is slow and steady with beefy health and fun cleaving, PLD has ranged magic and very good overall support, DRK is a magical burst who is a god with shielding, and GNB is a higher action tank that can burst out some nice damage while managing cartridges vs a standard gauge or MP and being a middle ground defensively.

That's a better route to go instead of keeping some terrible weaknesses for the sake of it.

[MikoRemi]

As for that extra response, you want some healing? Go into Extreme or Savage. Especially Ultimate. Tell me how good it feels to take a Homing Laser to the face without having all your cooldowns present, or invulning. I personally prefer doing both to save the OT some trouble.

I don't play WoW so that example doesn't mean anything to me. If it means it'll get sustain worth a damn though so it's in line with the other tanks though, sure.

Meanwhile the dungeon sustain makes it a godsend for if the healer either dies, disconnects, or is in all manners of incompetence. This also goes into Eureka content with mass pulling, Deep Dungeon content when I need to survive a luring trap, and so on. Can't separate them since skills carry over either way. I enjoy the thrill of surviving. If you don't like it then that sucks then, DRK is just for you then. Just like the many threads that want BLM to not be a turret with slow casts, I'm fine with it existing(even if it's getting more mobility than RDM anyway), but there's other classes available. However this thread asked for DRK stuff specifically, and so I provided. DRK's lack of sustain and unconventional invuln put me off from enjoying it, so I stopped playing it. And from the looks of things with how WAR either claws back from a somewhat ok beginning each expansion, or just remains rather well the entire time like HW, I'm not sweating that much.

[Zairava]

So you're ok with Dark Mind getting better, yet you also say removing DRK's "niche" would homogenize it further. Yeah, I want it to be better. This isn't even niche for the sake of being niche, you're just asking for a worse tank at that point. Might as well have PLD's "niche" of not being able to block magic back. Or how Berserk used to give Pacification as a "niche" thing that required Esuna. Or DRG's niche of dying easily to magical raidwides. Maybe even DRK's old Living Dead just to be the tank with the worst invuln for its standout "niche". Just mitigate all damage like a normal tank without any terrible downsides.

At that point one can spread out and figure out how to make it do good stuff in its own way. Again with Blood Price healing back 50% damage taken per hit, it wouldn't full heal but it'd be quite strong on slowing down the death of HP which combined with shields could make it purely devastating on top of the magical burst it offers. Lean into the MP management like usual but keep a general kit. We all have things like Rampart after all, and it was certainly "niche" when DRK's Shadow Wall had an extremely long cooldown for no reason compared to things like Sentinel or Vengeance. Were all tanks, but WAR is slow and steady with beefy health and fun cleaving, PLD has ranged magic and very good overall support, DRK is a magical burst who is a god with shielding, and GNB is a higher action tank that can burst out some nice damage while managing cartridges vs a standard gauge or MP and being a middle ground defensively.

That's a better route to go instead of keeping some terrible weaknesses for the sake of it.

Well, yeah, it would. You would be making it just universal like every other tank at that point. I could go on what I think would be good niches or bad (especially paladin being unable to block magic damage or Berserk's Pacification) but I don't think we'll get anywhere. At this stage, if we're going to make DRK the "god of shielding" then let us pursue our strength of that instead of just being given self-healing.

I honestly don't think we'll ever come to some sort of agreement trying to convince one or another the otherwise on most fronts. You hold different viewpoints than I do and neither of us are going to back down from them.

[MikoRemi]

Snip.

That would be indeed preferable to cutting down another class.

All fair, I just don't see a point in cutting down other classes that aren't actual problems(Expedience/SMN DPS kinds of issues). I want everyone to be happy with having a good class, if they need some tweaking, I'd rather give than take away. Only things to take away would be stupid things that don't need to be their own buttons, like BLM's Ley Lines and Between the Lines being separate buttons when they can just be one button. More buffs over nerfs is how SE tends to operate anyway, so with the time we have between now and Dawntrail, it'd be nicer to see how other classes can improve rather than messing around with classes that are stable.

[Zairava]

I enjoy the thrill of surviving. If you don't like it then that sucks then, DRK is just for you then. Just like the many threads that want BLM to not be a turret with slow casts, I'm fine with it existing(even if it's getting more mobility than RDM anyway), but there's other classes available. However this thread asked for DRK stuff specifically, and so I provided. DRK's lack of sustain and unconventional invuln put me off from enjoying it, so I stopped playing it. And from the looks of things with how WAR either claws back from a somewhat ok beginning each expansion, or just remains rather well the entire time like HW, I'm not sweating that much.

I like needing to fight to survive, Warrior doesn't provide that due to how easy it is. If they keep the trend with WAR in 7.0 it'll just be leveled then probably benched and geared with my other tanks like it's been most of this expansion.

It's how it should be, not every job has to be for every person, not everyone has to enjoy every single job, not to mention that is an impossible task to meet. I enjoy complexity and others don't. That's fine. DRK slightly provides that in big pulls currently, so here I shout into the void in hopes they do something with the job in 7.0.

[Shurrikhan]

And again you're simply boiling it down to technicalities. Yes, you do 200 potency per target, but it doesn't change the effective damage output increasing the more targets you put up.

Except the coefficient is oceans apart. Imagine if Fell Cleave hit every enemy nearby for the same potency as it does to its current only target. Would you assume that is balanced?

No? Because it does almost 3x the damage of the AoE?

Then why would you assume that (getting n times your single-target [not your AoE] healing potency per target) is balanced for Bloodwhetting?

Yes, Bloodwhetting is not unique in scaling flatly per target, since Abyssal Drain does the same, but there's that difference again: Abyssal Drain totals 200 potency of healing per enemy, while Bloodwhetting totals to 1600 potency of healing per enemy. And Abyssal Drain is a 1-minute CD, while Bloodwhetting is just a 25-second CD.

200. Versus 1600. 60-second CD. Versus a 25s CD.

Now consider what Bloodwhetting would look like if its AoE scaling functioned more like attacks, wherein total potency dealt does not increase linearly because you have to sacrifice potency per target in order to scale further:

Rather than 1600|3200|4800|6400|8000 total healing over 1|2|3|4|5 targets, you'd instead be doing ~1600|2000|2400|2800|3200, resulting in a curve that can actually be simultaneously appropriate both for ST and AoE.

So was I, in fact my very first job was Marauder fancy that. Hard to tell with the way you're talking like a SHB player.

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner

Nascent Flash did not require a partner for most of Shadowbringers.

Nascent Flash no longer being usable on self came only after they wasted the second button by making Nascent Flash identical to Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting (instead of having a pure mitigation tool (Raw Intuition) usable on self and distinct and separate healing-from-damage-dealt tool that can be used on self or others).


...And why are you dismissing people for "talking like a ShB player" when they're noting things as far back as Stormblood, let alone while you can't remember the content of the previous expansion...?

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Yeah Fell Cleave is the single target, if they rerolled decimate into Fell Cleave that'd be a whole other story. You're comparing two completely different things to try to make a point that makes no sense. Design-wise if they're going to have a button do both(IE; Circle of Scorn), they'll make it so. If it really was too powerful like Primal Rend, they'd reduce it on remaining enemies if it actually was too powerful. So sure, Fell Cleave hitting everybody would be stronger than Decimate, except we got two separate buttons for that. We also got the difference between Equilibrium working off pure potency whereas Bloodwhetting works on AoE, so comparing Fell Cleave and Bloodwhetting is basically comparing something like Equilibrium to Decimate. Are you that desperate to try to compare two different things to make a point?

Abyssal Drain also has an abysmal cooldown along with barely doing much. It sure could use a buff. Nobody is really arguing otherwise.

Hence Nascent just became the go to. Raw Intuition kind of just existed until EW which is pretty nice. Also makes it easier to just macro Nascent while keeping Bloodwhetting normal.

A lot of newer players see the older expansions and end up glorifying some of the things they see without knowing how they actually worked back then thanks to the whole homogenization train going around. Also a lot more players lately ever since a lot of big players came in and drew a lot of attention to the game, so those that look at cross classing or other random stuff like stance dancing or the role actions of old, it wasn't all that great, and if they were there they'd understand unless they were still coping, I know I was.

Pot calling the kettle black when you selectively don't remember threads which are much easier to look up over updated information on skills on various websites. Not remembering something over 5 years ago 100% let alone 2 years ago? Wow, so bad. Something from a couple days ago is a lot less of a tall order though, if not yesterday.

Not like it matters anyway, you can be one of the criers against WAR if you want. We haven't been in agreement for a long while and I'm sure you'll be one of those who will continue onward regardless of how silly it is. As I mentioned before, nerfs rarely happen and if they're needed they usually happen swiftly. I'd put more brainpower into buffing DRK personally, considering you want to try to make a silly point off of Fell Cleave vs Bloodwhetting of all things, enjoy the crazy train~.