Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Rithy255]

DRK and GNB's raidwide are less than useless in dungeons though, unless they want to make them into full mitigation instead of just magic.

To be honest this isn't even a tank specific issue, Level sync in this game is ass, and when jobs are added or reworked it is never taken into consideration.

Generally I think level synch effects tank the most, but yeah I do agree it effects all jobs (outside healer imo, I find healers more fun at lower levels because you can actually gcd heal), I just really dislike being synched down as a tank personally compared to anything else, they need to actually consider how jobs feel at early levels.

Oh I agree with tanks like DRK/GNB not just getting "magic only"

To be honest I actually wish raid wides were more fitting to the classes, such as Dark knight I rather have something similar to DV.
If I was to do raid wides (just from my POV), to fit more "thematically"
PLD: DV (The same, maybe replace its burst healing for aoe, not both), Passage either keep it as a "cone" or make it a 120 10-15% mit and make it like white mage, personally I dislike Passage but i know some people enjoy the cone AOE.
DRK: something like DV, but a bit stronger but only the barrier aspect of it.
War: a "beastly" shout that intimidates nearby enemies and makes the enemies do less damage for 10-15% (similar to reprisal lol, but it actually fits warrior instead of being a group healer...)
GNB: Same as current but also physical... can be bumped up to be more in line with other tanks.

Honestly theirs so much I want from tank changes in "DT" because their current state is honestly sort of miserable, I'm not really content with DRK's EW design nor with PLD's rework or Warriors state of being busted in normal content (even the best pick in hard content).

It comes down to pretty much every tank needing a re-evaluation, my only fear is if that happens tanks will become just even more similar lol.

[Derio]

Honestly Bloodwhetting is just crazy powerful as you literally dont have to pop any mitigation and can let yourself get really low. Pop BW and get to full health in a GCD or two. They gave PLD healing to help its self sustain to not be bad in dungeons. Lets be real here, before the PLD changes, PLD was really bad in dungeons and the only real sustain was casting clemency on yourself.

DRK at least had abyssal drain and TBN. GNB Aurora got buffed and it has HOC which is really good. DRK is the tank that was left out in terms of getting its self sustain updated.

Tanks getting updated in self sustain was another effort by SE to make healing easier, especially in dungeons. Do people think they will role that back and make healing harder in dungeons?

[Oizen]

Its going to be a really sad day if every tank gets their own forms of BW/Nascent/Shake because they refused to tone back WAR.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Its going to be a really sad day if every tank gets their own forms of BW/Nascent/Shake because they refused to tone back WAR.

They will still somehow manage to give Warrior a new toy that makes them stand out from other tanks, as is tradition.

Equalized the sustain of other tanks to get to WAR's level? No worries, WAR gets his 4th stack of Onslaught, two stacks of Shake it Off, maybe get another damage button at Double Down potency + guaranteed critical + direct hit and possibly also an AOE draw-in for mobs because getting rid of the cone-shaped Overpower was not enough.

[Oizen]

I do firmly believe if we don't do some blanket nerf to self sustain we could very well see groups that start to solo heal content out of the gate.
Its already the optimal way to run dungeons, and while its still currently a meme, the fact that current content like P12S or TOP have been cleared with no healers is a sign of things to come if nothing is done.
And it should be noted the core of those groups were running 2 WARs and PLDs.

If you go look at statistics for the jobs, the sheer gap in healing output between WAR and PLD and DRK/GNB its almost comical. Its clear early on the idea was for DRK/GNB to be the damage tanks and WAR/PLD to be the sustain tanks.
Well 5 patches in those sustain tanks are doing GNB levels of damage yet still bring that much more party utility. Not saying those damage buffs weren't warranted, but using P8S as an example when it was a problem for a week and the devs themselves admitted they failed to test it thoroughly doesn't make it an issue with their output, it makes it an issue with developer attentiveness.

And just to put numbers to this, in Anabaseios WAR has a Heal per second of around 4,500, PLD's is about 3,900.
DRK and GNBs both hover around 3,160. That means WAR doing slightly less than 1.5x of GNB or DRK.

Its kinda sad that this hasn't even been viewed as an issue by the devs imo.
Like WAR leading is to be expected due to its gimmick, but then TBN is DRK's gimmick and that logs as healing as well, and here we are.

I understand entirely that this isn't as big of an issue as damage outputs, and things like raw mitigation are also going to play into this not mattering as much, but then WAR really isn't a slouch on raw mitigation despite claims otherwise, and we're also on 6.5, nearly 6.51 so I really don't think the devs even care about things like this.

[MikoRemi]

Funny because you don't see this being a problem in content like UWU when everyone brings up TOP. Why? There's a Healer LB check just like there's a Caster LB check, and a Melee LB check. Good luck sustaining through those even with massive WAR and PLD sustain. Good luck clearing things like SOS or A12 without Tank LB either among many other pieces of content if you want to see it flipped around also.

Yeah it sure is comical when GNB has bad sustain and DRK has virtually no sustain. How about give it to them? GNB could get some sustain off the cartridge combo so while it's doing its super long opener, it can actually sustain itself throughout the combo without having to worry about misaligning a burst window because they have to press a mit first. DRK instead of getting MP back from Delirium like it used to could just heal 50% of whatever damage it takes. If that's too low then make it higher, but it's better than the Abyssal drain nerf its got. Those are already better then trying to nerf WAR's sustain. Might as well remove the healing from PLD's Holy Spirit combo while were at it. It's only fair to sustain if it's a complete DPS loss right? Why stop there, nerf Bloodbath for those pesky Melee DPS. Oh wait, that didn't matter in P8S anyway because WAR damage was so comically low compared to GNB that even with two damage downs in a group, GNB had 500 more dps to clear in general without breaking a sweat. I don't even care if WAR is the lowest dps for the record, but there shouldn't ever be a situation where you're forced to swap or play like it's Eureka Orthos for an entire fight.

Well the devs would look at it if people wouldn't try to constantly nerf another job instead of bringing their own job up. It's worked so well the past 5 expansions so why not go for a 6th one right?

[Supersnow845]

What are you even trying to say at this point, do you really not see that bloodwhetting is is destabilising the entire tank healer dynamic, you yourself even said “if they buff the others to WAR’s level they will have to change the content design to counter this” so you obviously understand on some level that bloodwhetting is having a destabilising effect on the game, the presence or lack of UWU needing a healer LB3 really doesn’t change that dynamic

Sure in general they are more likely to buff than nerf but that’s because in the past if x was 5% weaker than y and you buffed x by 7% you didn’t need to nerf it by 2%, you could just buff y by 2%, in this case you are fundamentally changing 2 entire roles (without even consulting the healers BTW), WAR being the best at everything is a problem to me but it’s not the damage that’s the problem, it’s the problem that WAR is affecting 2 entire roles

I’ll be honest I don’t want your theoretical changes to healers to accomodate every tank having WAR’s healing I want to do my job which is healing the tank to keep them alive and when I’m a tank I don’t want to play WAR, it feels bad to impede on the fun of others, your entire perception of this is basically WAR is good WAR is right everyone else should aspire to how fun WAR is

As for your second comment it still seems like you either don’t understand or are wilfully ignoring the fact that I’m agreeing that content would change, it just shouldn’t have to, the entire game shouldn’t bend around WAR

[MikoRemi]

Only because nothing else is being changed at the moment, and I'd love to see that changed. It's not destabilizing, it's just showing what a fun class can be. The presence or lack of UWU fully supports when everyone loves to bring up the TOP moment.

Well DRK and healer's apparently don't wanna consult WAR's on the matter either so I suppose were at an impasse. I would wager healers would love to have more offensive options at least. Even Scholar's has Miasma 2 and Shadowflare as starts, but they could do more with integrating them into heals. Unless you want the possibility of Cure 1 spammers to stick around I guess. Again, this isn't a healer thread anyway, so that coming up is just muddying the waters. WAR being the best is spooky but only because DRK and GNB haven't been brought up to par. Funny too that PLD is never brought up in despite also being a very capable solotank. Especially with the pretty nice cooldown it has in general. I'd give them a break anyway after 3.0 and 4.0 anyway, they've had it rough for a long enough time.

Again you seem to forget that if all tanks had sustain, things would have to be adjusted. Is it that hard to imagine things hitting a little harder to make sustaining a viable option yet not a trivial matter? Also known as...requiring healers to do their healing thing? If that's all you're asking for then that's even easier to fix than I thought.

If you don't understand what I'm saying after all this time though, then here's a very simple version. Catch flies with honey over vinegar. It will go over much better. If you want to continue as you are though, then well see how things go in Dawntrail, but we've had 5 expansions to know how history ends up going for WAR.

Here's hoping GNB and DRK get more defensive viability and general fixes, and DRK not being forced into having a poor mans Inner Release clone. Even they find that a slap in the face, and I'd agree. Also give DRK's the ability to mitigate all damage with all their skills instead of just magic with some. Also Dark Missionary coming earlier would be rightfully nice. Give GNB 25 seconds of No Mercy. Floors open for more.

[Supersnow845]

That’s your idea of a fun class, I for one don’t find being personally immortal in a holy trinity game to be remotely fun especially since I know I’m actively robbing the healer of enjoyment, even ignoring bloodwhetting WAR is by far the most boring tank to me, it’s the WHM of tanks

What evidence do we have in this game that all these magical changes will occur simply because tanks all get the WAR treatment, hell nothing has changed while WAR exists as it is now, you can wave that away as “oh but nothing is happening right NOW” but you know nothing is going to actually change if this happens, all it will do is just make all 4 tanks even more similar and further invalidate the existence of the healer role, and then we will have 5 expansions of useless content because of this change, you have bought up “oh but sasatasha isn’t like how it was in 2.0”, sure, but WAR changes have totally messed up palace, HOH, eureka, even Bozja, bloodwhetting does functionally what one of the most desirable essences in 5.0 does, the skill is totally at odds with the game

But I don’t even know why I’m bothering, at this point it’s obvious that you are arguing with the voices in your own head because you have stated like 5 times “I don’t understand what you are saying” despite directly bringing up and countering what you are saying, I’ve answered you “yeah but things would change if everyone was at WAR’s level” comment like 5 times and every time you just ignore my answer then pretend like I didn’t answer it

[MikoRemi]

Is it me ignoring things or is it you. That's just improper deflection. I bring up your points bit by bit and I just respond is all really.

And what changes do we have that nothing would change if all tanks had sustain? It's really easy to flip stuff around when it's just flimsy. The healer role is only being robbed of enjoyment in the sense of they're boring at the moment with dia>glare>holy>blood lily at the max, which is a shame. Most healers I meet tend to have a sigh of relief seeing a WAR rather than despair.

Hasn't messed up palace, if anything it's made it a little less of an RNG slog with regards to gloom. HoH is a similar deal. Eureka they're hilarious to bring around and are very powerful, but Reaper is also hilarious powerful even without a Eureka weapon. Bozja had White Mages being one of the strongest DPS ever in the entirety of the area second only to Black Mage with the amount of usage they can get out of Flare, did we have Warrior cheese on duels, or RDM cheese? I was there at ground zero so I can tell you it wa s the latter.

Oh attack me for arguing with voices in my head. I only respond when I see bad takes, and even I only have enough stamina for a few at a time. You're the one telling me "What are you even trying to say at this point", not me. I'm being pretty clear here really, but if anyone's not understanding the other here, it's pretty much you. It's also not ignoring your answers when each one is flimsy and gets torn into, it's simply a response.

Again for the topic, mitigation should be indeed balanced, two tanks clearly have something that one doesn't, and the other has...somewhat. And that's not going into how "wonderful" Dark Mind/Dark Missionary are in dungeon pulls let alone how TBN shows up at lvl 70 for some ungodly reason. Fixing those would certainly be a boon.