Revelations from Patch 6.5: "Growing Light", Part 1

[Cleretic]

I'm sure I've heard it before somewhere - presumably either in Plainsfolk, arcanist or Lominsan history info.

Looking deeper for this, it does come up very briefly in the Encyclopedia Eorzea entry for the Arcanists' guild... and, weirdly, the New Game+ description of the Arcanist questline, but is in no way mentioned in the Arcanist questline itself. So it's one of those pieces of lore that just sat there quietly for years until suddenly being dragged out for this and probably the new variant dungeon.

I always love to see that sort of trick. They've mentioned doing it in interviews before, basically digging up old lore to make the new idea they've got fit in with the existing world, and this shows why that's such a good idea: it hits me as a really new concept that makes me look at this part of the setting in a different way, but now that I'm doing that I can see that it's been there this whole time.

[Enkidoh]

The class description for ACN on the main ARR site on the Lodestone also states Arcanima originated "across the southern seas":

Adepts of the art of arcanum derive their might from symbols of power born of geometric techniques hailing from across the southern seas.

I seem to recall though that it originally stated "from the southern islands", and has been retconned, but that might just be the Mandella Effect at work.

[Iscah]

6.5 If you have read my other posts you probably can guess where this is going.

Hard-to-parse sentences and some inaccurate takes on lore?

So once again we go to the thirteenth and look at this somehow with only one shard of zodiark, Zeromas is close to breaking the barrier between worlds /fp Really guys not even 7 shards of zodiark could break the barrier dummy. This lack of lore connectivity between games is really killing me.

Zodiark never tried to break the barrier and tunnel from one shard to another, so we have no idea whether he would have been capable of doing so, although we can assume that it probably wasn't directly useful for the Ascians' approach to rejoining the shards.

Additionally, it's not a simple matter of the power level of "one shard versus seven shards" (for the record, actually eight shards) because there are other factors, like Zeromus also having Azdaja's power and likely being supercharged by the ambient Dark aether of the Thirteenth. There is also the complication of Zodiark having a weird sundering that broke him into physical parts rather aetherial 'layers' as everything else seems to have been, which may affect his power in strange ways.

Super we stop zeromas but zero is going to stay behind with golbez to repair the damage.....worst idea ever. Pretty sure either one of you isn't going to be able to build an eden type machine sure cid garlond yes.

We don't know exactly what it will take to fix the Thirteenth, but we do know that Zero is capable of manipulating Light, which is already being transmitted into the Thirteenth through the devices we set up.

In what way is staying behind to do what they can "the worst idea ever" versus leaving it to rot?

Additionally, we are very likely to return for future plot to build on this. As I've commented in other discussions, it seems probable to me that we'll be be continuing this with a big amalgamation of sidequest plot lines involving Cyella and Unukalhai, Ryne and Gaia, and now Zero and Golbez as well. The 6.5 MSQ seems to have been all about getting pieces into place so this story can come together.

The final insult to injury is the splitting of dragon eyes... ugh this is like heavansword all over again. It didn't work out well last time what do you think is going to happen this time?

What do you think is going to happen this time? You can't just make these sweeping statements and expect everyone to know what you mean.

When was the last time we "split dragon eyes", and what didn't work out well as a result? Are you talking about Hraesvelgr giving one of his eyes to Nidhogg? That was a bad thing because Nidhogg was already on a vendetta against all of Ishgard, not because them sharing eyes is anything problematic in itself. Hraesvelgr later shared his eye to us for the final battle on the Steps of Faith, and that had no negative outcome at all.

Dragons' eyes can be a problem in the possession of someone who intends to do ill with them, but not simply existing in the body of a dragon.

[Iscah]

Looking deeper for this, it does come up very briefly in the Encyclopedia Eorzea entry for the Arcanists' guild... and, weirdly, the New Game+ description of the Arcanist questline, but is in no way mentioned in the Arcanist questline itself.

Checking back on that, it might not come up within quests classified as the arcanist questline, but it does come up in the pre-enrolment quest So You Want to Be an Arcanist.

The roots of arcanima can be traced back to the esoteric calculations practiced by the people of the south sea isles. It was these island folk that first discovered a method to express natural phenomena in mathematical terms.
Building on this process, the existing mathematical formulae were further developed into arcane geometries─precise patterns that allowed a practitioner to weave aether into specific magical effects. The mages who invoked this new form of magic became known as “arcanists,” and the school of arcanima was born.

[Cleretic]

Zodiark never tried to break the barrier and tunnel from one shard to another, so we have no idea whether he would have been capable of doing so, although we can assume that it probably wasn't directly useful for the Ascians' approach to rejoining the shards.

Additionally, it's not a simple matter of the power level of "one shard versus seven shards" (for the record, actually eight shards) because there are other factors, like Zeromus also having Azdaja's power and likely being supercharged by the ambient Dark aether of the Thirteenth. There is also the complication of Zodiark having a weird sundering that broke him into physical parts rather aetherial 'layers' as everything else seems to have been, which may affect his power in strange ways.

Not to mention back in 6.0, learning that for most of the time since the sundering, the Ascians had never actually tried to break it on the other side, either. And not for lack of ability, because we then saw Fandaniel and Zenos make short work of it.

It's also in this patch that we learned that the Zodiark Cage was actually a two-person job: Menphina (or more correctly, her Ancient inspiration) designed the wards, and The Watcher kept guard over it. To me, all of this suggests that the operation of caging Zodiark was a pretty delicate one, probably purpose-built for exactly what they knew they'd face, and requiring constant watch. It wasn't just an impregnable wall; hell, brute force was the one thing we saw it definitely defeated by.

Honestly, learning more about the general plan involved with the Zodiark Cage sounds like an interesting thing the EE3 could cover. I don't think it'd be interesting enough to have actual in-game story about (especially not now), but there's some fun implications to the way it's depicted. It's clearly not designed for heavy assault, which means they were expecting and planned for entirely different conditions, and I'd love to hear more on that. It feels like there's almost a social element involved, like parts of it might exist entirely to tell the Ascians 'back off, I'm watching you' to deter them from attacking, rather than defend against them actually doing it.

[Iscah]

Not to mention back in 6.0, learning that for most of the time since the sundering, the Ascians had never actually tried to break it on the other side, either. And not for lack of ability, because we then saw Fandaniel and Zenos make short work of it.

It's also in this patch that we learned that the Zodiark Cage was actually a two-person job: Menphina (or more correctly, her Ancient inspiration) designed the wards, and The Watcher kept guard over it. To me, all of this suggests that the operation of caging Zodiark was a pretty delicate one, probably purpose-built for exactly what they knew they'd face, and requiring constant watch. It wasn't just an impregnable wall; hell, brute force was the one thing we saw it definitely defeated by.

You seem to be conflating two things here, though (although perhaps Grimr is too). You're talking about the wards that imprisoned Zodiark within the Source – I would suggest that they never tried to break Zodiark out of that because it may also act as a sort of life-support system keeping Zodiark in stasis but alive while he is broken into pieces.

On the other hand, what Zeromus was trying to do was tear open a hole between dimensions, which might be achieved without ever physically breaking Zodiark's wards. (Like a higher-dimensional version of a prison that stops you from moving up and down, forward and back, but you can just step out of it "sideways" – into a different shard in this case.)

In any case, the wards are already broken on the Thirteenth's moon.

Another factor which I didn't think of earlier is that the Thirteenth is fundamentally broken as a normal shard and already has the natural tendency to leak into the Source via planar fissures. Zeromus is simply trying to break open an extremely large fissure, and may well have succeeded if not for the efforts of the team on the Source side putting up blocking wards.

[Cleretic]

You seem to be conflating two things here, though (although perhaps Grimr is too). You're talking about the wards that imprisoned Zodiark within the Source – I would suggest that they never tried to break Zodiark out of that because it may also act as a sort of life-support system keeping Zodiark in stasis but alive while he is broken into pieces.

On the other hand, what Zeromus was trying to do was tear open a hole between dimensions, which might be achieved without ever physically breaking Zodiark's wards. (Like a higher-dimensional version of a prison that stops you from moving up and down, forward and back, but you can just step out of it "sideways" – into a different shard in this case.)

No, Grindr and myself were both talking about the wards, which are why the moon gate was opened in the Zodiark Hole in the first place. Those were exactly what was straining against Zeromus as an established concern and timer; the very first scene of 6.5 reiterates this one, and I think it's Vrtra that puts it most succinctly:

Yet though these measures were sufficient to imprison a fragment of Zodiark for eons, against our enemy's determined onslaught, they are degrading at an unsettling rate.

It's not the Thirteenth's wards that it's trying to bust through: it's the Source's, through the gate we made.

I'm pretty sure that's what Grindr was complaining about, because it matches his complaint, although as we've both said it completely makes sense as to why this is happening: Zodiark was a dormant and crippled prisoner, while Zeromus is whole and very much shaking the bars.

It's only once we go down and challenge Zeromus that she actually starts cracking some holes in the wall between shards directly: that kinda seems to take everyone by surprise, possibly including Zeromus herself (if she were cognizant enough to notice), and doesn't seem to be the central crux of the threat to anyone, but in retrospect isn't exactly out of nowhere; she's just making bigger versions of the fractures that most non-contracted voidsent naturally slip through.

[Iscah]

No, Grindr and myself were both talking about the wards

No, they specifically remarked on Zeromus being close to breaking "the barrier between worlds" where (so they claim) Zodiark had failed to do so.

As I recall it, it's a separate phenomenon that the wards on the Source side have been reinstated to block Zeromus from coming through the dragon-sized hole we made to cross over ourselves.

I may need to rewatch it, but my impression is that Zeromus tearing through the dimensional walls during the fight is a separate thing to trying to force through the ward.

In any case, one way or another, Zodiark never tried to cross dimensions, and apparently was sitting inert all this time while Elidibus as his driving force was elsewhere, so there is no really direct comparison of Zeromus doing something Zodiark couldn't.

[Cleretic]

Okay, I think we're just fundamentally disagreeing about what part of Grimr's post is the 'somewhat rooted in the thing we actually played' part, and which part is just him conflating something unrelated; his argument doesn't make sense on its face, so some part of it must be wrong. Either he's talking about Zeromus causing holes in dimensions and then deciding that the talk about Zeromus threatening the wards is about the same thing, or he's talking about Zeromus threatening the Zodiark wards when Zodiark didn't, but mistakenly calling it 'the barrier between dimensions'. Both are wrong for basically the same reasons, and we're just bumping into each other because you're assuming he's talking about the former, and I'm assuming he's talking about the latter.

We're never going to get clarification because Grimr is a drive-by poster who never returns to a thread after making a single post, so I think it's best to just recognize we're making that mistake and move on.

(Also, got Grimr's name wrong in the last post! Whoops! Not gonna fix it, because the mistake was already seen and quoted.)

[Lyth]

Aloalo:

Haven't seen much discussion around this yet, but being based in the South Sea Isles, Aloalo has some interesting tidbits about Arcanima as well some tie-ins to Nym. Also, giving a SCH fairy a gun was an ingenious idea.

/tenrabbits