I really don’t know anymore….

[Renathras]

It's not about some sort of "gotcha!" moment. Imagine...

Except that's not what it is. And further, the desperation to make it that by some people (see Sebazy below) is evidence it's not some innocent ribbing or mild annoyance.

I "go off" on people for using hyperbole (which is usually me just saying "You're using hyperbole", hardly "tearing into them") because of how often it's used to wrongly bolst- why am I even having this discussion?

This is stupid.

I'm not going to keep entertaining this tangent that is a desperate attempt to sidetrack things. THIS is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Yes. it is.

No, it's not. See above.

And the rest of your unhinged rant doesn't help your case.

I'M NOT TRYING TO SUGGEST THAT DOUBLE SCH WAS THE NORM. I'M SAYING THAT IT WAS A KNOWN STRAT AND DID SEE A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF USE.

They why are you even disagreeing with me?

I said WoW figured this out a decade and a half ago. Is that not so?

I pointed out in ARR FFXIV worked pretty well for this. You have some examples of a few people using it for a single encounter. You seem to be contesting me saying that people did it late in the expansion with "Well, acksually..." they did it early, except you have one case of one fight and it not being any where near universal.

If your only issue was "pretty much no one" was "well, some groups here and there", then good god, consider my prior statement amended. But it doesn't change the point:

WoW and FFXIV both figured this out a hell of a long time ago, so there's no reason we can't now. Are you going to sit here, while shitting on me, and insist that what we have right now for healer and combat design is all FFXIV can manage in the year of our lord 2023?

Because my argument was that it can do better.

That is what you're contesting while trying to one-up me with "thumbing yourself", whatever the hell THAT means.

EDIT:

My point was obvious, and you decided to latch onto a minor aside and ignore LITERALLY the entire rest of my position - including the much more interesting and pertinent discussion about support - to try to one-up me with your quip about hyperbole and trying to prove me wrong as a scrub vs your oh-so-high-and-might-amazing-hardcore-raider-from-2.1-self when we arguably AGREE on the overall situation needing change and your attempted disproving not really panning out using even your own sources to show that people disagreed with your position/agreed with mine at the time.

It's like, instead of joining hands, you picked one thing to specifically drive a thorn in my side and twist it around out of sheer spite when we could otherwise find points of agreement.

Like...WHY?

All you need to say was "Well, I did see a few groups run SCH/SCH on Twintania, but you're largely right that ARR overall had a good balance between WHM and SCH that worked in most encounters and for most players. I agree that modern FFXIV could take a page from its own past as well as WoW to make more interesting healing."

Why didn't you just...I dunno, say THAT or something like it instead?

[ty_taurus]

Except that's not what it is. And further, the desperation to make it that by some people (see Sebazy below) is evidence it's not some innocent ribbing or mild annoyance.

I "go off" on people for using hyperbole (which is usually me just saying "You're using hyperbole", hardly "tearing into them") because of how often it's used to wrongly bolst- why am I even having this discussion?

This is stupid.

I'm not going to keep entertaining this tangent that is a desperate attempt to sidetrack things. THIS is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Except you have torn into people over it. Not every time, or even most of the time, but you play the role of hyperbole police and are quick to shove a finger in someone's face anytime you see a hyperbole that you don't like. You made a lengthy post not long ago specifically criticizing hyperbole and consequently those who use it.

Look, man, I'm trying to help you avoid getting into these fights. I'm not telling you that you can't use it, or that you're evil for doing so. I'm just saying if you are going to use it, then stop calling people out on it, otherwise it's hypocritical to always be the fastest sheriff to the draw when calling out others' use of hyperbole and then turn around to use it yourself. You can take the advice and use it to try and have healthier conversations with others, or if you like getting into constant altercations, then by all means, deny what I'm saying and ignore me.

[Renathras]

Except you have torn into people over it. Not every time, or even most of the time, but you play the role of hyperbole police and are quick to shove a finger in someone's face anytime you see a hyperbole that you don't like. You made a lengthy post not long ago specifically criticizing hyperbole and consequently those who use it.

When people are using it to form the crux of, or major bolstering to, their arguments, yes.

I appreciate you "trying to help", and genuinely believe you believe that's what you are doing (and I don't mean to be patronizing by that). But this is akin to saying "That guy who says murdering Humans is bad is murdering people. Let's all call him out on being a murderer and say how wrong he is to point out to others that murder is bad and how he needs to stop doing it!" "Who did he murder?" "He butchered out one of his chickens! He's such a murderer!"

...I know, I know "you're using an example of a thing we all know is bad"; whatever. The point is obvious, and you can accept it or quibble on the details. Either way, I'm not going to keep going with this line of reasoning.

Using hyperbole in general is not good. Using hyperbole as the crux of an argument or to falsely bolster a weak argument is bad. Using it when it's verifiably false (the recent case of "Precisely zero" being one such example). If you guys think hyperbole is bad, by all means, call me out on it - and everyone else who uses it. If you don't think it's bad, then whatever.

It's not a "healthier conversation" when people are calling me out for a thing while giving others a pass for it. Especially when most of the call-outs aren't even accurate. Or relevant.

.

But see what's happened?

Yet another case of someone deciding to deride me has derailed yet another thread.

Did her "calling me out" on that lead to a healthier conversation?

No. No it did not.

Are you going to advise her on ways to have a healthier conversation?

No. No you are not, are you?

Are you going to try to help her to avoid derailing threads and getting into these fights? Are you going to give her advice to avoid such instances in the future and to have healthier conversations with others without getting into constant altercations?

Well..I'd be thrilled if you did...but I suspect the answer is going to be you are not.

.

EDIT:

And the thing is, this is literally an aside to an aside TO AN ASIDE. It's a derail of a side conversation that has derailed the ENTIRE THREAD. And for what? What good has it done? What positive has come of it? What productive conversation are we having? What agreement are we reaching? What ideas are we exchanging?

/sigh

[ty_taurus]

When people are using it to form the crux of, or major bolstering to, their arguments, yes.

The reason why other people don't get called out on their use of hyperbole is because those people aren't also complaining about and calling others out on hyperbole. If someone has a bad faith take, most here just call out the bad take. They're not fixated on how that was delivered, but you seem to get fixated on the fact that it is hyperbole regardless of the take. And that's the difference.

Hyperbole is a tool--a literary device that is neither good nor bad. You described cases in which it can be unhealthy, and that's true, but it can be used in other ways as well. I first commented on your use of the term "stratospheric" because that would fall under the category you described of "falsely bolstering" your statement by over exaggerating the stances I and others who feel similarly as I do have taken to make your perspective sound better or to paint ours in a more negative light. Sebazy's comment on your use of "pretty much no one" is more just a bitter jab at the fact that it is hyperbole from someone who complains about hyperbole, but the actual comment on its own is fine. It's either true enough that we understand what you're saying, or it's misinformed.

And that leads me to whatever your argument has been about with Sebazy. Note that I haven't called her out, but I haven't called you out either in regards to the argument you two are having. That's because I'm not paying attention. I'm just responding to your comments directed at me. I'm really not interested in reading through everything in detail to try and play the referee, but I very lightly skimmed over the details. Sounds like you started out talking about the general player perception of SCH/SCH, Sebazy pivoted into a point about the strength of the comp and the advantages it offered for the coils, and you're trying to counter argue some of those points I guess.

On the actual point of the topic, Sebazy knows what she's talking about far more than you or I do when it comes to raiding and what raiding was like then. Not being a raider doesn't mean you don't know anything, but you do not have anywhere near the level of first hand experience on raiding that she has. Maybe, just maybe, she understands the raiding side of it more than you do. And I'm in the same boat for the record. My raiding experience back then was very limited. Sure, from the common player's perspective, SCH/WHM sounds like the right move, and the two naturally did compliment the others weaknesses. It just so happened that SCH was deceptively far better than most of us really understood, especially back then.

It actually reminds me a lot of competitive Pokemon. Because the current format for competitive Pokemon uses Scarlet and Violet, the most recent games. But old formats from past generations are still played competitively today. There's a YouTube channel called False Swipe Gaming that's put out very well researched videos on the competitive history of different Pokemon, and there are times where he discovers Pokemon that have gotten added to a past generation's Meta years after that generation ended because the modern competitive players have found out new strategies that no one thought to deploy back when the generation was current. And I imagine that if each expansion were achieved and playable for FFXIV, we would probably have done the same: learning about new strengths that we didn't realize were there at the time of that expansion. SCH/SCH being discovered as actually stronger or perhaps specifically stronger for certain fights, or whatever the case may be, is something the general playerbase would eventually have discovered rather than just the raiding community.

On the flip side, the whole "thumbing himself" comments are really nasty and uncalled for. I get why Sebazy feels annoyed. She feels that someone who has a fraction of her raiding experience and knowledge is trying to educate her on how raiding actually was, but there's a better way of going about it.

[Sebazy]

<snip>

Le shrug

They make their bed, they can sit in it.

I disagree with plenty of other people on here, probably the clearest case would be Semi over the current state of WHM?

So why don't we put each other on blast? Because we are able to respect each other's opinion and don't feel the need to resort to unproven statistics and unfounded opinions to discredit each other. Case in point:

They why are you even disagreeing with me?

Why indeed? Let's see now:

As for the how: It's that or homogenized morass. WoW figured it out 15-20 years ago. FFXIV figured it out in ARR. (1)I know you like to go on about how super late in the expansion some people figured SCH/SCH could be a gain, but (2)pretty much no one did that or cared to because the difference wasn't great enough (or the demand there) to make it worth doing.

Point 1. If you're going to call me out on something, at least do your homework and call me out correctly.

Point 2. Pretty much no one did, except for uh, the people that did. If you had a WHM that struggled to time a Stoneskin to infirmity, it was actually a pretty big difference. If you're going to say that SCH's lack of healing was a bad trade off, let me remind you just how powerful and resource free rouse>whispering dawn was, now note that double SCH allowed you to maintain whispering dawn for a little over 40 seconds per minute. For free, without having to hassle your bards for Ballad and the associated DPS hit that came with it. Besides, how do you even know that 'pretty much no one' bothered with it? Were you actively raiding coils in 2.0? Did you participate in the raiding scene back then? Or are you just making assumptions because you personally never saw it when you tackled coil?

You need to realise that your jumping to assumptions and building an immovable fortress out of them even when you are clearly and certifiably wrong is a huge part of what causes you to put everyones back up.

I don't come swinging into commentary over the new raids and tell the current generation of spreadsheet enjoyers what's what because it's not something I'm part of anymore and it's not my place to try and speak over their firsthand experience. I'll drop my opinion for sure, but I'll make sure it's clear that it is just that. My opinion. Note how I liberally use IMO, IMHO etcetc? You are aware what they mean right?