New Job: Viper

[Ilyn]

Yeah but that would require me to put in more than a single brain cell of thinking power

you can put a negative in front of a word to omit results . Example MMO Viper -ffxiv

[SeverianLyonesse]

you can put a negative in front of a word to omit results . Example MMO Viper -ffxiv

World of Warcraft Hunter, Aspect of the Viper.

I still think it's such a weak concept. Like in WoW, that Hunter archetype (Beastmaster) works like GW2 Soulbeast, where they have several animal stances: Aspect of the Cheetah, Aspect of the Beast, Aspect of the Dragonhawk, Aspect of the Monkey, etc. And while I understand the need to not step on Monk's toes, it just feels so underwhelmingly unidimensional to have the whole thing just be "snek".

Again, if we hadn't already done "snek" I think better and more subtly with Sage, I wouldn't mind as much. But like, branch out devs.

[Shurrikhan]

World of Warcraft Hunter, Aspect of the Viper.

Why are we reaching this far when Kiss of the Viper was a literal FFXIV Rogue ability.

As for the name, Viper, more generally... it tends to pop up in fiction as a name for orders of assassins or enforcers of a sort that, once disturbed, are lethal in a quick and "no witnesses" sort of way (by stealth or by comprehensiveness), usually either per some sort of peasant militia, a professional guild, or a part of organized crime.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Why are we reaching this far when Kiss of the Viper was a literal FFXIV Rogue ability.

As for the name, Viper, more generally... it tends to pop up in fiction as a name for orders of assassins or enforcers of a sort that, once disturbed, are lethal in a quick and "no witnesses" sort of way (by stealth or by comprehensiveness), usually either per some sort of peasant militia, a professional guild, or a part of organized crime.

Well if it was a Rogue ability, that just makes me further wonder why they are poaching from Ninja's history and not designing something completely distinct. More to the point, I am not trying to find sources to justify it as a Rogue class when virtually nothing about it communicates "Rogue" other than technically being related to Zidane, and being an insufferable edgelord with the cringey snake motifs.

And yeah, I still am not buying it. Firstly, Viper tends to be the name of orders, not archetypal classes. I don't believe it exists as its own archetype in the fantasy lexicon, nor does its name popping up one of any number of animals make it any more or less appropriate as the indisputable best name for an assassin class. And secondly, I don't even really see much in this class as being an "Assassin", and think that those parts that could even be construed as Assassin-ish overlap too heavily with Ninja. I don't think the game needed or wanted an Assassin class when Ninja existed, and I think the most natural way to implement Zidane's job fantasy and overall vibe was as a Hunter. The design of this job screams "Hunter" to me, or "Would-Be-Hunter-If-We-Hadn't-Insisted-On-Retrodding-Ninja's-Edginess".

I'm bored by it. But you are correct about one thing. This job does feel like they carved out "Kiss of the Viper" and tried to make an entire class out of it. And that's just so flippin' boring and uninspired to me. We already have the assassin class. It was Ninja all along. We wanted a SCOUTING class, something to complement Ninja while adding *new* dimensions to scouting, not repeat it.

[Iscah]

We wanted a SCOUTING class, something to complement Ninja while adding *new* dimensions to scouting, not repeat it.

You want that. Not "we".

I don't have an opinion on the class yet, but I don't appreciate being recruited into someone else's.

[Shurrikhan]

Well if it was a Rogue ability, that just makes me further wonder why they are poaching from Ninja's history and not designing something completely distinct. More to the point, I am not trying to find sources to justify it as a Rogue class when virtually nothing about it communicates "Rogue" other than technically being related to Zidane, and being an insufferable edgelord with the cringey snake motifs.

And yeah, I still am not buying it. Firstly, Viper tends to be the name of orders, not archetypal classes.

A person of a theistic or "Holy" religious order tends to be a "Monk", "Cleric", "Adept", "Acolyte", "Paladin", "Hand", "Inquisitor", "Cavalier", "Judicar", "Priest", etc. Similarly, such orders tend to have "Shadows", "Knives", "Cloaks", "Blades", "Spiders", "Blackguards", "Fangs", "Vipers", "Scorpions", and so forth, where that "Viper" tends to have as much as contrasting place among its alternatives as a "Paladin" would among its own.

Whether you like Rogue/Assassin/Swashbuckler like classes or not, it still has archetypal weight beyond just its being a part of an order, just as a Priest and Monk have distinctions despite being frequently part of the same order and historically mostly interchangeable outside of their housing situation.

But you are correct about one thing. This job does feel like they carved out "Kiss of the Viper" and tried to make an entire class out of it.

I never made that claim, and it feels odd that you'd be making it when moments ago you weren't even aware the skill existed.

We already have the assassin class. It was Ninja all along.

By what measure? The execute skill NIN long since lost? By that warrant, throughout much of XIV, Bard had the strongest assassination skill in the game. Its execute was a 10s CD, as opposed to NIN's 40s. Its burst? DRK comes close to NIN's burst. Stealth? NIN doesn't actually use stealth. It effectively just has an out-of-combat reset for its Ninjutsu-charges. Single-target focus? NIN is no more single-target focused than any other job.

While, yes, NIN could have been made the game's "Assassin" job... it isn't particularly one at present.

We wanted a SCOUTING class, something to complement Ninja while adding *new* dimensions to scouting, not repeat it.

Agreed. Which is why I would have expected a Hunter or Wildling or Adept or Mirage or Dervish or something of those types rather than a Viper.

I will agree that it seems an odd choice to make given the opening/opportunity currently present. But, it makes little sense to be annoyed with that choice simply over its being an archetype you --in particular, not a general you-- are less familiar with. There's still archetypal weight there, and the job is still likely to be plenty cohesive. Neither of those things are its issue.