I really don’t know anymore….

[ty_taurus]

Let’s be real here.

Truthfully, this is a really toxic mentality to hold. The reality is that this is an MMO, not a single player RPG. You are going to play with other players. Some of them will be more skilled than you, others will be less skilled than you. There is nothing short of cosmic intervention you can do to change that fact.

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. There is absolutely value in approachability, but it’s about balance.

Bushnell’s Law: The best video games are easy to learn and difficult to master. “Easy to learn” is half of that equation, but so is difficult to master.

in an effort to control weaker players from suffering you the mild inconvenience of making you redo a fight in a video game, you are punishing the players of higher skill. Quite frankly, that to me is selfishness. ‘I makes me upset when a noob makes me wipe, so the healers should be as simplified as possible so I don’t have to wipe as much.’

If you don’t like that the result of an encounter is based on the performance of your team and not just you, I suggest a single player RPG.

[Raikai]

I've noticed this as well. Trying my hand at AST and healing again... The fight goes fine, but I'm constantly having to throw out gcd AoE heals because it feels like the co-healer is not pulling their weight and I'm too scared of just 'waiting' and people not making for next mechanic. One example is the 1st doom mechanic on Zeromus EX: Most of the time I rely - just - on Earthly star to cover half of the damage and wait my co-healer to cover the other half, they don't make it.

Maybe is just bad luck with the Party Finder... or maybe is that the 'good healer' numbers are diminished?

[PercibelTheren]

You're not the only one experiencing this. I've seen this in Thordan Unreal. I LOVE the fight, but it hits hard (I get to heal for once holy heck) and there have been times I've almost run out of mana between rezing and having to GCD heal because my co-healer just doesn't help. I don't parse but I'm pretty sure I've done upwards of 70% of the healing in some groups. I'm used to solo healing Savage fights, but most of those don't put out this level of damage. In this Unreal, I have had wipes happen because I just couldn't keep both tanks alive through busters and also heal the group through raidwides in the add phase alone.

[GrimGale]

I've noticed this as well. Trying my hand at AST and healing again... The fight goes fine, but I'm constantly having to throw out gcd AoE heals because it feels like the co-healer is not pulling their weight and I'm too scared of just 'waiting' and people not making for next mechanic. One example is the 1st doom mechanic on Zeromus EX: Most of the time I rely - just - on Earthly star to cover half of the damage and wait my co-healer to cover the other half, they don't make it.

Maybe is just bad luck with the Party Finder... or maybe is that the 'good healer' numbers are diminished?

It might also be a case of a snake biting its own tail. Your Co-healer sees you overly ready to throw GCD heals and thinks it's not worth adding to it. Its easier to communicate than to wait for your co-healer to adapt.

[Renathras]

I just don't understand why we have 4 healers and they all function very similarly. We have the space to make 1/2 of healers more complicated and still keep 1/2 simple.

Straight up, I've been making this argument for close to 2 years now. "4 Healers Model" you can find all over this subforum, with everyone beating on me every time I mention it, but it's that very concept. We have enough healers to make 2 complex and 2 not, or even 3/1. We don't have to change everything. One of my hopes for SGE (before it went live, obviously) was that it would play like RDM (or like SMN now does), as kind of a DPS Job but where your damage spells translated to healing. A WoW Discipline Priest. Not even for me, since I don't like that, but to make happy the people who would.

I was pretty disappointed when they didn't do that, even though I personally like SGE okay, because I thought it was a missed design space/opportunity.

People complain when I say it, but the 4 Healers Model really is the best idea: Make the Healers not all have the same exact (or close enough to make no difference) damage and (frankly) healing kits. Then players can gravitate to the one they like best.

Isn't a support by definition a buffer though?

Not exactly.

Support is generally something that offers utility aside from DPS. RDM is a support because of Vercure, Verraise, and Magick Barrier as these are all things above the baseline. Even if you ignore the latter of those, Vercure and Verraise would make it a support-DPS. It is, in fact, and has been since SB, the Job that people who outright say they want a Support role enjoy playing the most since it's closest to that. BRD used to be that way before ShB, back when it could do things like some healing, cleansing, and the songs were more situational and responsive to situations.

Support CAN be buffing, but it can also be debuffing, healing (on a non-healing role class), raising, etc.

FFXIV, ALMOST every class has a "buffs party damage", so that isn't really support since it's basically baseline, and Feint/Addle are also baseline (as is Tactician/etc of the Ranged role, since they all have one and they're all identical).

.

As for the how: It's that or homogenized morass. WoW figured it out 15-20 years ago. FFXIV figured it out in ARR. I know you like to go on about how super late in the expansion some people figured SCH/SCH could be a gain, but pretty much no one did that or cared to because the difference wasn't great enough (or the demand there) to make it worth doing.

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As for the last: The only time I've seen it is PF Extremes. I don't think I've seen a WHM that cast literally nothing but Glare other than that. It wasn't "the role was so boring the person fell asleep". It was a willful decision since they started out the fight/pulls that way.

[Troxbark]

This last extreme fight is very easy but I don’t know what it is but the healers just aren’t jelling right now. At least my co-healers. I’ll say around 80% of them from all across the NA data center have been absolutely terrible in this fight.

I just don’t understand it. I was on this kick with all the other veteran good healers about healers being boring and need more to do. Maybe more damage spells or support spells or just make things hit harder so we heal more.

This boss hits pretty noticeably and as a scholar main I run through my resources because my co-healer just doesn’t really help out.

I can’t tell you how many white mages I’ve had who doesn’t use medica 2, or even cure 3. Now I know that GCD healing is looked down upon. So other vet healers don’t come for me please. However there comes a time when you just gotta use it to help the team. Using a GCD to save the group instead of possibly wiping or losing some players because afflatus rapture or lily bell just wasn’t enough. Or they are just flat out glare mages who never uses gcd heals and if we lose people then oh well.

It’s shameful. How can you call yourself a healer? It’s our first job after all. I love broiling it up too like any other and yeah I’ll roll my eyes every once in awhile when I need to succor but I do it because losing people sucks and wiping sucks. If I can prevent that why not? But I’m sorry if we’re getting slammed by the laser and you see us taking crazy damage because maybe the tanks are out of position or maybe a melee has gotten to close and you continue to glare etc then no you are not a good healer. I don’t care what your gear is. You absolutely suck.

And I don’t wanna hear “well if they are out of position that’s not my problem, let them die” yeah sorry but it is your problem. Someone gets a vulnerability stack yeah it is your problem. You’re a healer. Do your job. I’m sick of this. I’m tired of picking up your slack. We are suppose to work together as a unit. But I digress.

Honestly I was all for the devs kinda giving healers back more dps spells but to be honest I’m wondering where my brain went because if they play like this now then just imagine what 2-3 more dps skills will get us.

After 41 runs I saw the mount drop for the first time and won it. I am so over this fight and the terrible co-healers I’ve had. Good riddance.

See you all in Dawntrail. The good healers. Not the narcissistic, self-absorbed, mean, horrible, anti-gcd and terrible healers.

Because this fight requires a lot of THICK N BURSTY heals, which some regen healers are either unwilling to do or underestimate how much damage there will actually be.

On top of that sch basically brings nothing to the table compared to sge, you have no oh shit buttons and you have no reliable way to make up for regen healers drooling on themselves. Poor scholars, may you get the buffs and adjusts you damn well deserve.

[Sebazy]

As for the how: It's that or homogenized morass. WoW figured it out 15-20 years ago. FFXIV figured it out in ARR. I know you like to go on about how super late in the expansion some people figured SCH/SCH could be a gain, but pretty much no one did that or cared to because the difference wasn't great enough (or the demand there) to make it worth doing.

Uh, that's perilously close to being hyperbole sir

A couple of quick sources:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...eborn/68415483 (Note posts #2 and #4)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...om_an_endgame/

Pps, remember that I was actually there camping in Wineport, actually doing prog and chatting away with pretty much every other raid team on the EU's busiest raid server at the time (Remember people actually had to run their team to the entrance so you could actually see what comps were being run etc). Perhaps if you were there you might have realised that no, double SCH wasn't a thing super late in the expansion. It was actually a thing super early on, primarily pre 2.1. Here's why:

When multiple characters are playing the same class/job in a party, the gauge for level 2 and level 3 limit breaks will now fill more slowly than before. - Official 2.1 patch notes

I'm not trying to suggest it was the mainstream pick for Coil or such, but I absolutely saw a not insignificant number of teams running double SCH and it was certainly a thing that Solitude was aware of even if we did choose not to run it. Clearly between that, groups stacking BRDs (Something we did do) and Wars getting benched (Something we didn't do), it was enough of a thing that SE took action against it.

*Edit* Just to clarify why double SCH was a thing for Turn 5 in particular:

During prog, A WHM would need to preferably roll Regen, then most importantly land a Stoneskin and immediately time a Cure II to land between Death Sentence hitting and the infirmity debuff taking effect. The window was something like half a second or so. This was something that was drilled into us in Solitude and being able to do it consistently for pretty much every death sentence was why we were happy sticking with WHM/SCH.

If the team had a WHM that couldn't get that timing down consistently, the easy solution was just to run double SCH. Rouse+WD as soon as DS starts casting, only one of the SCHs wants to time Adlo, the other can pre apply it for the initial hit and then just lustrate as needed, with at least 6 on tap if not more it massively reduced the threat that Death Sentence posed especially later on in the fight.

As for the last: The only time I've seen it is PF Extremes. I don't think I've seen a WHM that cast literally nothing but Glare other than that. It wasn't "the role was so boring the person fell asleep". It was a willful decision since they started out the fight/pulls that way.

Were they just never paying attention from the get go? It's not like every fight opens with the exact same raidwide AoE or anything.

[SweetPete]

I suggest a single player RPG.

Well as much as I adore you across these forums. I see you post and respond allot and most times I agree with you but this time I do not. Let me explain myself more clearly. You’re right this is an mmo. Yes some players are more skilled than some. I understand all of that and I agree with you on that portion. Now where I disagree is where you say my mindset is toxic. I’m not a rude or an abrasive person who just outright calls out bad healers immediately and tell them to get good. I know people like this and I think it’s not how you conduct yourself.

Let’s take the new extreme for instance. We go in. I’m on sch/sge and I have a whm/ast as co healer. Or it could be the other way around but let’s use example A. Now the doom effect happens I do my thing and my co-healer doesn’t help much and we wipe to doom effect. I say nothing. Accidents happen let’s go again. We die again to the same mechanic. The party starts to question the heals maybe even someone will call out lack of heals. We settle it and go again. Die yet again. Okay. I make a small suggestion. Hey, cure 3 will work wonders for this part. Or hey, plenary plus cure 3 or summon lily bell and that can help. That’s how I usually do it. Then I get a nasty response like “I know what I’m doing, I’m doing my part and worry about you. Or they just stay silent.

Now does that sound toxic or abrasive to you? I’m not rude to people. Not nasty to people. Sometimes people might need a little encouragement or a little push and that’s okay. However, I don’t join farm parties to wipe constantly to the same mechanic. Definitely not a doom mechanic when all we need to do is heal up to max. So if that’s having a toxic mindset then wow. Maybe my post came off as angry and bitter. It was just frustration. Your response would hold allot more weight if I was expecting this from a practice to clear party. That’s a different lane. I’m talking about farm parties. You know what a farm party is right? Sure you do. It’s when 8 people have cleared the fight a number of times and are confident in their skill and ability to keep clearing the fight.

I take friendly advice all the time from people and I like to think I give good advice too and sometimes people accept it and sometimes not and that’s okay. I know I will encounter some healers who won’t take any tips or anything and that’s fine too. All my post was trying to say is don’t disable your team. GCD healing I know allot of healers don’t like to use them but hey casting 1-2 here and there to help is not a horrible thing. So again if you see this as toxic behaviour then fine. People just need to grow a pair and not be so sensitive. This is an mmo. Will play with people from all over the world and like I said if we can sit here and hold tanks and dps accountable then we need to hold healers accountable too. No coddling. It is what it is.

I said what I said. And I’m not changing on it.

[Aravell]

like I said if we can sit here and hold tanks and dps accountable then we need to hold healers accountable too. No coddling. It is what it is.

I agree with this part. I personally have seen a few instances where people are tip-toeing around asking the healer to heal more even though it's actually needed. Like when we wiped to a small pull in a dungeon and the PLD apologises for not using Clemency. For this extreme, I've also had a party with 2 WHMs and we wipe to the stack beam because neither WHM wanted to do more than pop a couple Afflatus Raptures.

Honestly, if one good thing came out of old Cleric Stance in the ARR/HW era, it was that healers back then knew how to gauge incoming damage quite well.

[ForsakenRoe]

As I've mentioned somewhere else (idk where now), I think the reason for this is because we got so many healing options over the years, that the 'idealized run', where we use zero damage-losing heals and can fully 100% damage uptime, went from an 'ideal' to a 'reality'. When you CAN heal a fight with zero GCDs wasted, that one first GCD that you 'waste' is a literal infinity% increase of 'inefficiency'. Back when we had, for example, the best possible run be 'well we got it down to 11 GCDs', the thought of 'we had 13 GCDs this time' is a lot more palatable

It's pretty funny though, that the healing required has apparently gone up a little bit, and it's causing absolute terror for PFs. Abyssos showed us what would happen, and as they say, 'those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it'