Square Enix should retire the relic quests with Endwalker

[Banriikku]

A simple truth:
NOT ALL CONTENT NEEDS TO BE FOR ALL PEOPLE. And with this in mind NOT ALL CONTENT should be solvable by all players.
Savage to hard ? Not for you.
Ultimate to hard? Not for you.
Fishing is not battle content? Not for you.
Crafting and Gathering is not battle content ? Not for you.
Relics to much time consuming ? NOT FOR YOU.

Relics are not and dont need to be BIS. They are a shiny bling bling for the collectors. Leave it that way.

At the moment we got 2 tomewepaons - Mandervill and the normal one and thats plain stupid. ALSO Relics were never hard, just time consuming.

Should we start to complain about crafting and gathering beeing a non battle thing ? MAKE it playable as tank and faster.... sounds stupid because it is.
We dont need 2 tome weapons......

I repeat relics are not hard just time consuming, multiple paths are welcome, we want a weapon tied to lore and exploration, relics are not BIS (except extreme cases, which lets be honest no casual ever will expierence).

[Winterfang]

How are you going to explain that to players who only get to play 4 hours a week at best

Duty Roulette Level 90 Dungeons give you 100 tomes upon completion, that's 15 dungeons without doing literally anything else. You're telling me that 15 dungeons (With doing nothing else) is too much for a casual player to do within a 4 month period? Really?

Players who may need those tomestones for other things, like meeting ilvl requirements to progress MSQ?

And they already have plenty, PLENTY, of alternative methods in order to meet the requirements to progress. The msq requirements for the latest Abyssal Fracture trial is 625. The dungeon that leads up to it drops 635 gear. Here's a bonus too, it's the same thing with normal raids to see the story. Anabaseios requires 615 while the dungeon at the time, Aetherfont, dropped 625. You can pass through these supposed ilvl MSQ hoops easily, so much in fact that I don't think jumping through hoops is a justifiable term. It'd be more accurate to say they are nonexistent.
Why are we pretending that this is what's going to prevent someone, if anything, from progressing the MSQ.

SE has made the decision that those players should have access to the tomestone weapons just as much as those who play 4 hours (or more) daily.

Cool, I look forward to getting a shiny ultimate weapon handed to me then. I don't do Ultimates. It's not my cup of tea. But look at all those people who are so deprived of walking around with one. After all, they don't have the time to spend to learning those long complicated fights. Just send it to me in the mouth of my savage mount, please and thank you. After all, this will make participation numbers higher, no?

[Supersnow845]

No. Those weapons exist for those who raid. You cannot purchase them same expansion unless you collect multiple Blades from the correct raid end boss in addition to having the correct number of tomestones.

Not everyone raids.
.

Did you just argue completing the fourth floor normal once per week for a few weeks is a prohibitive challenge because not everyone raids

Tomestone weapons have always been catchup weapons, that’s their entire purpose and why they are 5 levels below the savage weapon despite every other piece of augmented tomestone gear being equivalent to the raid gear so you mix and match, because they are catch up weapons

[Supersnow845]

The problem is there is no limit to the logic of “if we make it more accessible more people will do it”

What if we logged on day 1 of the new expansion with Omni-90’s all ultimate weapons, necromancer, big fish, emblazoned and BIS for every job

By squares own metric then every piece of content has 100% engagement, in practice nobody would actually log on, where do you feasibly stop

[TaleraRistain]

For that matter, let's say SE does add an option so run some piece of content multiple times to get a dropped item and it takes 20 of those dropped items to purchase one of the items from the vendor that would otherwise cost 500 Causality.

Can you say in all honesty that you would choose the drop method when it's less efficient than running other content to get the Causality?

I feel like that could be a happy medium. Players could choose one of the non-tome options to buy the necessary item from Rowena's representative, for instance. There could be people who give quests for daily roulettes like the two girls in Idyllshire, crafting or gathering options, something that uses wolf marks, some currency gained in exploration zones, possibly a drop from FATEs, the tome option, etc. It still satisfies the desire to allow more player freedom of choice in activity, but also checks the "do this specific thing" for those who want that feeling.

It could also help in regards to your point about having to choose what to use your tomes on. Someone might use one of the alternatives because they have things they want to use their tomes specifically for. For instance, before they took it out, I used the alternative quest to get aether oil on some recent Animas I was working on, because I had earmarked those poetics for other things. So I was glad the option was there.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

snip

The interview in question: https://www.4gamer.net/games/199/G019924/20230825055/

Jeeqbit has underlined some parts, one of them being the relic weapons in another thread:

[...]On Relics: "In the past, the idea was that it would be okay if you just made one job, and the time calculation for Zodiac Weapon was set at 120 hours, but now that the range and amount of content has expanded, there is less time to devote"

"If you plan to have multiple jobs produce items, it will take a toll on your inventory if you go around collecting special reinforcement items, and it will be difficult to tell how much you have strengthened. Therefore, we made it so that Allagan tomestones"

"young people who play online games these days choose not to play unless it is easily available. However, as I mentioned earlier, if players are enjoying playing multi-jobs these days, I think our game design should be designed to reflect that."

"On the other hand, there are also voices saying that they want enhanced content or exclusive content for weapon production. It's a voice that never existed before... However, in Bozja we created a system where weapons could be strengthened both inside and outside of the content, but in the end it came down to efficiency. For that reason, it is difficult to know what to do with the next series, but the fact is that many players have strengthened the Manderville Weapon this time to the highest level ever."

Again, from ARR to ShB, they stayed consistent with their "grindy, time consuming"-formulae for Relic weapons. This is what I meant by having their vision muddled: relic does not need to appeal to ALL players, and then suddenly they deviate from that.

Tome already filled the niche of not wanting to deal with that but still keep up with the iLv progression. Why do we need another one? (a question not directed at you specifically) So what do we get in return after having this one piece of content ripped off from us? Oh, none? Lmao. So much for being labelled a "theme park MMO".

Using participation as a metric of success can be whacky as we all know it. How are you going to tell that people actually enjoy your content when they set the metric as low as... say, by being online daily without taking account of what you're actually doing to play the game?

By that logic, we should all get relic weapons, necromancer title, a housing plot of our choice, 4th savage floor mount, Isle Perifool/Adenium etc, by simply logging in. Surely that oughta boost the number of engagement in said content, yeah?

[Davixxa]

Actually if youve played enough to cap, then yeah. Its fair.

I've barely played at all for most of these patches, and I could still get the relics on release.

[Volgia]

How are you going to explain that to players who only get to play 4 hours a week at best and don't spend every minute of those 4 hours trying to grind out end game tomestones? Players who may need those tomestones for other things, like meeting ilvl requirements to progress MSQ?

SE has made the decision that those players should have access to the tomestone weapons just as much as those who play 4 hours (or more) daily. They too are paying a $15/mo subscription for the game.

It's very easy to think in terms of "this is easy for me and best for what I want from the game". It's much harder to see things from the perspective of other players who play the game differently than you do.

SE doesn't owe you any explanation if you don't have the time to play the content.

I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this, given that if a player only has 4 hours a week to play this game they really wouldn't be interested in any kind of progression system like savage or a relic grind. 4 hours a week doesn't even give you the time to show off your glam.

[VerdeLuck]

Except Comedy doesn't fill the same niche for non-Savage raiders. For most players, it's the best gear they're going to get so it goes to their main job. They're still going to need the Causality to get gear for their other jobs if they don't have or don't want to spend the gil in crafted gear.

Again, your mileage is going to vary depending on how you play the game. SE decides who they want to get the weapons and they've decided that it should be as many as possible instead of just those with excess time on their hands for long grinds.

Should there be some sort of long grind content added each expansion for those with the time on their hands? Yes.

Does it have to be the relic weapons? No.

You may not be enjoying the relic questline this expansion but other players are. If participation makes this the most successful relic series in the game's history to date, SE is not going to ignore that going into Dawntrail even if the vocal few think that it's the wrong choice. It's still a for-profit product. They're going to do what they feel is in the best interest of making profits.

Is their vision muddled? I can't answer that because I don't think they've clearly shared what their current vision for the game is with the player base. The last thing we heard was they want to shed the MMORPG image of the game and make it known as a RPG that can be played solo or with friends.

Most likely they have a clear vision but the player concept of the vision is muddled because they're not sharing the entire picture with us.

Just wait for them to get tired of this, this is the issue du jour on the forums right now.
A few weeks ago it was Eureka and pretending like the reception to un-nerfed Eureka wasn't overwhelmingly negative.
Then It was "Streamer said game is dying are we in trouble?", now it's relics, just wait for the MMO boomers to watch a new opinion video and find a new fight to yell on the forums about how "It used to be better, now it's so bad and everything is too easy to get, these kids today".
My personal guess is we're going to see "The jobs are too dumbed down, we need more moments of glory" and then it'll be just repeating that Lynx Kameli video ad nauseum and doggpiling/misrepresenting the posts of anyone who disagrees.

[Stormpeaks]

Just wait for them to get tired of this, this is the issue du jour on the forums right now.
A few weeks ago it was Eureka and pretending like the reception to un-nerfed Eureka wasn't overwhelmingly negative.
Then It was "Streamer said game is dying are we in trouble?", now it's relics, just wait for the MMO boomers to watch a new opinion video and find a new fight to yell on the forums about how "It used to be better, now it's so bad and everything is too easy to get, these kids today".
My personal guess is we're going to see "The jobs are too dumbed down, we need more moments of glory" and then it'll be just repeating that Lynx Kameli video ad nauseum and doggpiling/misrepresenting the posts of anyone who disagrees.

What a cool person you are, just saying that all and any complaints are invalid

You sure as hell are defending this company well, go at it champ ! You're doing great !