Revelations from Patch 6.5: "Growing Light", Part 1

[Lunaxia]

I don't know. There are some out there...

I don't know what Hydaelyn has to do with the Scions, and I can't really contradict something you claim to have seen, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people were either neutral or outright hated the Ascians back then, effectively because there was nothing to like about them. They were pointless, shadowy figures with no background or defined purpose who more or less showed up at the end of any given story to do a bit of moustache-twirling and then depart stage right with no real impact or consequence on the actual plot, to the point I remember one of the most frequent sentiments expressed during the reaction to ShB was "I can't believe they made me care about the Ascians" lol. As for Hydaelyn herself, I mean, I think that's a valid take? As much as people around here like to ignore it, there have been hints dropped here and there about how she may not have been all that she seems, and I think what she did to Minfilia merits a lot of questioning even as they painted her as being okay with it (Argos bearing some odd resemblance to her is one of the things that weirded me out the most to be honest, and I never even like Minfilia that much.) And as for prior to that, well, people theorise, and the big Good being the big Bad is certainly a trope, and Hydaelyn had a certain vagueness about her nature that could invite that speculation, I guess.

It's not really anything to do with the writing giving poor reasons as to them tagging them along as it is outright ignoring the fact the characters are tired and could do with being left alone for a while, especially in a new set of quests that highlights new beginnings. I don't know if specifying any amount of time had passed would have done much to make a difference; for most feeling weary with the characters, I think the break needed to be for a while in our time, lol, and not something simply to be shown by the writers. The frustration was more a matter of the characters having outstayed their welcome than just being annoyed with the plot contradicting itself - expecting or hoping for a reprieve and then not actually having any real break from them.

[SannaR]

snip

My first part of that reply was more about how there were some who've had a vehement disdain for who we later learn was Venat for Hydelean and that it wasn't even because of the whole oh well this is a JRPG with a friendly God so they gotta be bad since 3.2 for a lot. And that there's been a few who held that disdain and mistrust of her from the start. There wasn't many but it was there. Same for the liking of the Ascians even when it was mostly Lahabreha teaching Nero how to spy on one's enemies and sending his black masked cronies after us. Heck people some of that group that liked Nabriales kidnapping Minfillia just cause they hoped he'd kill her cause they hated her so much.

Again I don't think even if we somehow did all of 6.0 until now without any of the major Scions as not part of the story that a good number of those who have this fatigue would have been satisfied with it. As you can't quantify the correct amount of time for some of this group. Unless it was something as long as say Meffrid's absence. Of course who would have known back in base ARR that he'd pop back up during Stormblood. Then again for some they just hate the Scions so much that even that long of a break wouldn't count. I know I shouldn't double down on strawmen, but look at Lyse we didn't have her for most of ShB even in the post patch yet most people who currently have this problem wouldn't count that as enough time. People even would rather exaggerate Y'shtola missing out on a good portion of Stormblood as not even being as long as it was and thus we should dismiss it. Now I'm not sure if you're aware or want to admit that part of the whole ugh why do we still have them group isn't even fatigue related. It's someone's extreme disdain for those characters disguised as fatigue. I'm not saying it's a huge swath of the fatigue crowd, but they are definitely part of that crowd.

An aside note grats Cleretic on being asked to appear on SotR.

[Lyth]

Thanks for pointing out that Llymlean Easter egg. It reminds me of the /comfort gremlins. I hope that they do more things like this in the future.

I know the Loporrits mentioned bringing their technology into the Void at the end of 6.5, but was there a comment in there about the Last Dregs expanding as well? I thought I saw something to that effect but can't seem to find it. Speaking of which, the latest IS quest is great.

I can see why people go off on various predictive tangents, but that's not really a mark of the writing. Also, it doesn't really matter who you add to your party, you will always get pushback over the inclusions and exclusions to your roster. I'm personally thrilled for Erenville's addition. Others might prefer to see someone like Jullus join up instead. Again, this is less about the writing and more about invested players all wrangling for control over its direction.

An aside note grats Cleretic on being asked to appear on SotR.

Oh interesting. I'll have a look at that later.

[Lunaxia]

My first part of that reply was more...

Oh! My bad, you were referring to the first part of my other post. You only quoted the Scion portion with your response and I forgot about the other after falling asleep, lol. I was a bit confused.

But I stand by my original point in terms of Hydaelyn still being a viably suspicious figure, and when I referred to that trope I was including pre-3.2 as well. Some people disagree, but ultimately this is the FF franchise; twists and turns are kind of Their Thing, we have a vague, benevolent deity figure appear to us in a dream at the start of the game who beseeches us to act in her name without revealing much in the way of anything about why or who our foes are, and even in the absence of any overt evidence I think it's only natural that all sorts of theories and speculations start to form on the back of it. We're all different, we all perceive things differently, some people saw and liked Hydaelyn as a kind, motherly goddess figure, and others didn't - no one is wrong, and no one is wrong for holding on to those theories as the game progresses, or for just fundamentally enjoying or disliking a character. The problem is that people around here need to really, really, really stop treating positive perceptions as being of intrinsically more value than negative ones, and using those opinions against others to constantly make light of and undermine what they're saying, when it's such a deeply flawed, underhand and ugly tactic that I will never stop pointing it out when it happens. You're even doing it here, by building on Cleretic's assumption and trying to put the basis for Endwalker's criticism down to "well some people have always really HATED Hydaelyn." Setting aside that's flat out incorrect, and there is [checks briefly] an 880 page thread detailing both why that isn't the case and the problems players actually had with the story that some people are still choosing to be wilfully obtuse over because they can't make a handy strawman out of it - so? Is there anything inherently wrong with that? If having strong feelings on a character somehow renders their point of view incorrect or unreliable, then doesn't everyone here who adores Venat or thought the Ascians were the worst thing ever also also not have a leg to stand on? We're all going to be somewhat biased in some respects because of who we are, our personal preferences and our attitudes towards the world, and pretending you're free of that because you like something is very misguided.

But truthfully I don't think I've even come across one person who took issue with Endwalker who actually had a problem with Hydaelyn prior to the Ancient storyline - most were pretty much ambivalent towards her, so it's a pretty pointless argument to be having anyway.

And I disagree, I think a prolonged break from the Scions would have made a difference. Would it have cured all the problems people have with the characters? No, and I'm sure their return might have elicited some eyerolls, but that comes down to their writing, and the same goes for Lyse and Minfilia. Distance was never going to help them especially, because their core issues were how blandly they were written and the lack of depth or substance they had, and the same goes for the Scions these days. It could help them, if the break brought some new facets of their characters to the table, but the presumption is their character arcs are done, so most people are/ were settling simply for a break to find their return to their roles as plot devices a little more bearable.

But again, we have a return to "some people just hate them!" and ignoring both why people have frustrations with the characters, and the fact that many actually used to have a considerable degree of affection for at least some of them before Endwalker - they just "hate" them, and quite obviously for no reason, so anything they have to say is therefore invalid.

[Cleretic]

An aside note grats Cleretic on being asked to appear on SotR.

It was great fun, and honestly my only disappointment is that the Llymlaen discovery happened after the stream! That would've been a hilarious thing to bring up.

The attack itself is based on fish lore; specifically, the Navigator's Dagger and Navigator's Brand, which laid down the modern interpretation of the tale about Llymlaen that we learn the truth of at the end of the raid series. It's a really clever pull, and I am curious to learn how exactly it slipped into the planning stages.

[Yuella]

The quality of the writing for 6.1-6.5 have been very good. The way they develop Zero from a mistrusting loner to become a beacon of hope for the thirteenth in such a short period of time is amazing. They managed to use many different characters to interact with Zero and develop her perfectly.

The way they managed to have Garlemald and Radz-at-Han to interact with each other is also perfect. The biggest negative of Endwalker writing is the apparent disconnect between the Thavnair storyline and Garlemald storyline but they managed to wrap it nicely.

[Vallavia]

Having sat on it for a few weeks, I think I may have liked the 6.x series more if I'd gone through it all in one go instead of being drip-fed the story over a period of two years.

While the conclusion was well executed and the story itself was decently written (aside from the occasional cumbersome dialogue), it just felt like a lot of waiting around to be ferried to the next plot important event and the foregone conclusion of our victory was even more pronounced than usual which made the stakes feel completely nonexistent. Endwalker and Shadowbringers both let your all-consuming hero crown slip a little bit at least once each, whereas the one time in Newfound Adventure where you take a loss there's not even a shadow of a doubt that we're just going to rush back in and destroy Zeromus on our own terms.

Echoing what a few others have said, the alarming lack of any internal conflict among our allies is moving very swiftly into completely implausible territory. With all the narrative ground to cover in Endwalker I was willing to excuse it, but the mere prospect of significantly contributing to Garlemald's restoration should at the very least be remarked upon by anybody considering the amount of division the empire left behind and the fact that had they not fallen to internal conflict they would have gleefully continued their offensive in Eorzea without a second thought. Even if the outcome remains the same, I think it would benefit the story a lot to present some differing viewpoints or any kind of discussion.

More than anything else, though, I'm at least glad Y'shtola finally got some solid hours in the limelight. There's nothing wrong with a static character, especially with this cast, but it felt nice to finally get a glimpse into her motivations and character beyond sardonic one liners and being assured by that narrative that she is indeed moderately intelligent.

Knowing what we do now about Dawntrail, I feel like it would have been a better move to leave 6.1 as is, and branch off into the voidsent friendship adventure from after Alzadaal's Legacy much like they did with Myths and previously with Sorrow of Werlyt, and then spent the rest of the patches on the trail of Galuf Baldesion throughout Sharlayan, Garlemald, and Thavnair, until we ultimately find the old letter and prepare to go to Tural. A more grounded adventure seems like what most people expected based on the way it was advertised, and it would have made much better use of the new zones that were in my opinion just a touch underutilized. Oh well, best is yet to come, hopefully.

[Cleretic]

Margrat!

Okay, turns out the team in charge of figuring out the materials for the Ragnarok are concerningly invested in making arms and armor now! And next up: oh god it's the systms devs dealing with eye strain. This one's gonna hit too close to home.

I'm realizing that unlike with a lot of other custom deliveries, there's not actually a story or progression involved in Margrat's, it's just a procession of cute little character and worldbuilding pieces. I don't mind that, it's great, I just don't think we've had that since... well, M'naago or Kurenai.

[Iscah]

I'm realizing that unlike with a lot of other custom deliveries, there's not actually a story or progression involved in Margrat's, it's just a procession of cute little character and worldbuilding pieces. I don't mind that, it's great, I just don't think we've had that since... well, M'naago or Kurenai.

I suspect that at whatever point I get around to taking another alt through Endwalker, I'm going to find some newly familiar faces in the Sage Council gathering.

[Iscah]

Level 19 Island Sanctuary quest

I feel robbed.

I got spoiled ahead of time that it was going to be Wilfsunn and Bloewyda and I was so looking forward to whatever they had to say that would make them fill a whole quest. Instead we got derailed by Puddingway and a whole lot of utterly boring cutscenes - exacerbated by them being built around the assumption that you're attached to the mammets and want them to be happy, when the nasty furball has done nothing but make me want to punt it off the closest cliff. Seriously. Its two favourite topics are how good it is that we got rid of all that ugly natural landscape, and how indebted we ought to be to it for... what, standing in what is supposed to be our house and claiming it's in charge?

Also I do not care about Puddingway and several minutes of drawn-out reaction shots and baking a stupidly oversized pudding.

We could have had some nice lore-building about Moenbryda and Urianger. Echo flashbacks even! I know we got a couple of remarks about them but I wanted more. (I'm still disappointed that the pre-Bozja questline never shot off in the direction of more Psychonaut-delving either. Talk of Moenbryda there had me hoping for a trip into Urianger's mind.)

And to top it all off, our reward is the dullest glamour they've produced in the entire questline, if not the game as a whole.

I don't know who this "one more guest" is that Tataru plans to bring, but my hopes aren't high for doing them justice, whoever they are.

Edit:

Also we had the annoying manual carry task just to stretch things out even more.

And all my least favourite "you're supposed to think this is cute" things in one little clip: Team Mammet doing the Loporrits' infinitely irritating cheek-rub emote.

On guessing our final visitor... the logical concluding visitor would be Merlwyb, but the mention of it being at Emmanellain and Sicard's recommendation makes me think they're dragging Edmont into this.

Or, no wait, it's Ishgard and pirates so it must be Carvallain and Rhoswen!