Square Enix should retire the relic quests with Endwalker

[Jojoya]

I think the problem we're running into is that some players are trying to find some sort of meaning to getting a relic when other players will never consider it more than a flashy item used for glamour that requires more effort to obtain than other weapons.

Your literally telling people to purposely slow down on content because there apparently going too fast when there really is only 1 path to completing the relic.

Which is false. There are many paths to completing the relic because there are many paths to earning Causality. Not everyone does the same content. Eventually those methods all converge into making the purchase of the items from the vendor but getting there will vary from one player to the next.

I shouldn't have to artificially halt progression or find the slowest method possible to complete it and to extend it.

Yet that's exactly what you're asking SE to add for the relics - an artificially limiting way to obtain the next stage or completion of a weapon.

Why is it okay when SE artificially limits things but not okay when you choose to do it yourself?

For that matter, let's say SE does add an option so run some piece of content multiple times to get a dropped item and it takes 20 of those dropped items to purchase one of the items from the vendor that would otherwise cost 500 Causality.

Can you say in all honesty that you would choose the drop method when it's less efficient than running other content to get the Causality?

^I don't think they're a troll either. They are however displaying the very same mindset that the dev shown when they made the decision to change the fundamentals of what makes a relic weapon 'relic': it turns them into just another lackluster content that misses the point of what they're there for in the first place.

What are they there for other than another reason for players to repeat content to fill time between patches?

[Elkanah]

Relics are nothing short of glamor. And as patches progress (and expansions), they get easier and easier to obtain over the year(s). Why not just make them level 1 fully flashy glamor with a quest instead of making them a long winded grind that doesn't really do anything in the long run? They went from being worth their salt when ARR released (for like 5 minutes) to practically useless when endgame became available (at least till glamor became a thing). This way devs can work on other things (and not really have to worry about the combat stats). We all just want the shiny toy and its glow. Nobody cares about it being an actual product (when tome weapons become available after 7 weeks passed, or you finish the final raid of that series)

[Supersnow845]

Relics are nothing short of glamor. And as patches progress (and expansions), they get easier and easier to obtain over the year(s). Why not just make them level 1 fully flashy glamor with a quest instead of making them a long winded grind that doesn't really do anything in the long run? They went from being worth their salt when ARR released (for like 5 minutes) to practically useless when endgame became available (at least till glamor became a thing). This way devs can work on other things (and not really have to worry about the combat stats). We all just want the shiny toy and its glow. Nobody cares about it being an actual product (when tome weapons become available after 7 weeks passed, or you finish the final raid of that series)

If they are just glamour then what’s the downside or making them long grinds to achieve a reward

The main argument against them being grindy is that people see them as catch-up gear; if they were just exclusively glam then there is no reason to not make them long time fill grinds

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[…]What are they there for other than another reason for players to repeat content to fill time between patches?

I’m saying that’s what they’re there for: an optional grind to keep players engaged with an ”at your own pace”-specific goal(s) to work toward.

ARR & HW makes you run all over the realm & even includes some DoH/L hustle.
StB & ShB heavily ties its relics to specific content, with the latter having some flexibility, option wise.

Resuming your daily roulette/capping tome as usual ain’t unique to relic—that’s quite literally the laziest solution they can come up with. Outside ShB starting phase, there are no other steps that literally screams “lol pay me for your tome weapon v2.0”, let alone repeated steps after each steps.

[Jojoya]

Relics are nothing short of glamor. And as patches progress (and expansions), they get easier and easier to obtain over the year(s). Why not just make them level 1 fully flashy glamor with a quest instead of making them a long winded grind that doesn't really do anything in the long run? They went from being worth their salt when ARR released (for like 5 minutes) to practically useless when endgame became available (at least till glamor became a thing). This way devs can work on other things (and not really have to worry about the combat stats). We all just want the shiny toy and its glow. Nobody cares about it being an actual product (when tome weapons become available after 7 weeks passed, or you finish the final raid of that series)

I think part of the original idea was that giving them stats would help players still struggling to clear content before the next expansion's release get that little extra boost that would make a difference.

Otherwise, they could be just cosmetic items locked behind a long grind and it wouldn't make a difference to most players.

If they are just glamour then what’s the downside or making them long grinds to achieve a reward

The main argument against them being grindy is that people see them as catch-up gear; if they were just exclusively glam then there is no reason to not make them long time fill grinds

For some players, getting 6000 Causality is a long grind. No one is getting that many with a snap of their fingers.

It obviously isn't a long grind for those players who have the luxury of playing multiple hours every day, but they can turn it into a long grind by getting every weapon for every job.

I’m saying that’s what they’re there for: an optional grind to keep players engaged with an ”at your own pace”-specific goal(s) to work toward.

ARR & HW makes you run all over the realm & even includes some DoH/L hustle.
StB & ShB heavily ties its relics to specific content, with the latter having some flexibility, option wise.

Resuming your daily roulette/capping tome as usual ain’t unique to relic—that’s quite literally the laziest solution they can come up with. Outside ShB starting phase, there are no other steps that literally screams “lol pay me for your tome weapon v2.0”, let alone repeated steps after each steps.

But what grinds in the past were truly unique to the relics as opposed to not running the content for other reasons? Eureka is about as close as it would get though some might have still be doing it for the lore. But still players had reasons for doing it other than the relics.

Out of all the relics series we've had, only ARR had content that would be considered unique to the relic - the Chimera and Hydra trials. There was simply no reason to do either of those trials unless you were on the corresponding relic quest or helping someone else who was. There are players who don't realize those trials even exist because they've never done the relics. Even the mysterious maps, content added for the relic grind, ended up with another use (ask any hunter who blows their poetics on them trying to spawn Agrippa).

All the rest have been based around content that already existed for other reasons. Eureka and Bozja had their own reasons for existing; SE chose to also use them for the relics of their respective expansions. Eureka was very much forced in that you could not progress a relic without being in Eureka. Bozja wasn't - most players did most of the relic outside of Bozja because it was more efficient compared to fighting drop RNG until SE fixed that late in the expansion.

Many of the past relic steps screamed "pay for your upgrade with your tomestones" even if it wasn't all of them. Yet the things we would be asked to do would have also generated tomestones in addition to the drop items or the Light we were trying to collect.

All SE really did this expansion was cut down on the double dipping with the relics. We had to make a choice between using the tomestones we got for doing the content for the relic or for other uses instead of getting an item drop and having the tomestones to buy those other things.

Someone who does Savage raiding wouldn't feel the difference because they probably don't use the tomestones for anything.

Then there's someone like me who doesn't do Savage. Do I use the tomestones to complete the relic stage, do I buy catch up gear for alt jobs I rarely play, do I buy craftings materials, do I buy Rains to upgrade the crafted gear? Using the tomestones on the relic means I now have to do more content if I also need those tomestones for gear (whether crafted or purchased) for alt jobs. That starts feeling grindy indeed.

How many players were panicking because they expected to find cheap crafted gear on the marketboard when a relic patch dropped just to find prices skyrocketing because instead of buying crafting mats with tomestones, players were buying relic upgrades?

It's a good example of Your Mileage May Vary depending on what you include in your game play and what part the tomestones play in the first place.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]All SE really did this expansion was cut down on the double dipping with the relics. We had to make a choice between using the tomestones we got for doing the content for the relic or for other uses instead of getting an item drop and having the tomestones to buy those other things.

Someone who does Savage raiding wouldn't feel the difference because they probably don't use the tomestones for anything.

Then there's someone like me who doesn't do Savage. Do I use the tomestones to complete the relic stage, do I buy catch up gear for alt jobs I rarely play, do I buy craftings materials, do I buy Rains to upgrade the crafted gear? Using the tomestones on the relic means I now have to do more content if I also need those tomestones for gear (whether crafted or purchased) for alt jobs. That starts feeling grindy indeed.

How many players were panicking because they expected to find cheap crafted gear on the marketboard when a relic patch dropped just to find prices skyrocketing because instead of buying crafting mats with tomestones, players were buying relic upgrades?

It's a good example of Your Mileage May Vary depending on what you include in your game play and what part the tomestones play in the first place.

And that very decision is the major dealbreaker when comedy tomestone already fills the same niche. Why do we have to have tome 2.0. while also losing that optional grind that every prev expac's relic has? If they think that's too grindy, then why not leave it alone (just like if you're not willing to stomach savage/ultimate then just avoid it)? Why does that has to go in order to enable 'lazies' to pick up their shinies?

Last time I remembered from their 4gamer interview only sheds more light to just how increasingly muddled their vision are when it comes to the content's purpose. The moment you try to make all contents applicable to all types of players (no it doesn't have to be, really!) and fundamentally changed it in the name of that, that's when we get something like today's Manderville Relics questline.

[Supersnow845]

For some players, getting 6000 Causality is a long grind. No one is getting that many with a snap of their fingers.

It obviously isn't a long grind for those players who have the luxury of playing multiple hours every day, but they can turn it into a long grind by getting every weapon for every job.

.

The tomestone weapons already existed for said people, just saying “get all the weapons” is not any sort of substitute especially since the underpinning way you accumulate tomestones already isn’t terribly interesting because it’s what we already do anyway

[Winterfang]

For some players, getting 6000 Causality is a long grind.

1500 Tomes every four months is not, in any shape, a long grind. Even less so when you can stockpile tomes before the next relic step is available, meaning all you need to do is sit around for Manderville cutscenes then pick up your relic the minute your done watching them.

[DiaDeem]

You're a relic
I'm a relic
Everyone's a relic

[Jojoya]

And that very decision is the major dealbreaker when comedy tomestone already fills the same niche. Why do we have to have tome 2.0. while also losing that optional grind that every prev expac's relic has? If they think that's too grindy, then why not leave it alone (just like if you're not willing to stomach savage/ultimate then just avoid it)? Why does that has to go in order to enable 'lazies' to pick up their shinies?

Last time I remembered from their 4gamer interview only sheds more light to just how increasingly muddled their vision are when it comes to the content's purpose. The moment you try to make all contents applicable to all types of players (no it doesn't have to be, really!) and fundamentally changed it in the name of that, that's when we get something like today's Manderville Relics questline.

Except Comedy doesn't fill the same niche for non-Savage raiders. For most players, it's the best gear they're going to get so it goes to their main job. They're still going to need the Causality to get gear for their other jobs if they don't have or don't want to spend the gil in crafted gear.

Again, your mileage is going to vary depending on how you play the game. SE decides who they want to get the weapons and they've decided that it should be as many as possible instead of just those with excess time on their hands for long grinds.

Should there be some sort of long grind content added each expansion for those with the time on their hands? Yes.

Does it have to be the relic weapons? No.

You may not be enjoying the relic questline this expansion but other players are. If participation makes this the most successful relic series in the game's history to date, SE is not going to ignore that going into Dawntrail even if the vocal few think that it's the wrong choice. It's still a for-profit product. They're going to do what they feel is in the best interest of making profits.

Is their vision muddled? I can't answer that because I don't think they've clearly shared what their current vision for the game is with the player base. The last thing we heard was they want to shed the MMORPG image of the game and make it known as a RPG that can be played solo or with friends.

Most likely they have a clear vision but the player concept of the vision is muddled because they're not sharing the entire picture with us.

The tomestone weapons already existed for said people, just saying “get all the weapons” is not any sort of substitute especially since the underpinning way you accumulate tomestones already isn’t terribly interesting because it’s what we already do anyway

No. Those weapons exist for those who raid. You cannot purchase them same expansion unless you collect multiple Blades from the correct raid end boss in addition to having the correct number of tomestones.

Not everyone raids.

1500 Tomes every four months is not, in any shape, a long grind. Even less so when you can stockpile tomes before the next relic step is available, meaning all you need to do is sit around for Manderville cutscenes then pick up your relic the minute your done watching them.

How are you going to explain that to players who only get to play 4 hours a week at best and don't spend every minute of those 4 hours trying to grind out end game tomestones? Players who may need those tomestones for other things, like meeting ilvl requirements to progress MSQ?

SE has made the decision that those players should have access to the tomestone weapons just as much as those who play 4 hours (or more) daily. They too are paying a $15/mo subscription for the game.

It's very easy to think in terms of "this is easy for me and best for what I want from the game". It's much harder to see things from the perspective of other players who play the game differently than you do.