Square Enix should retire the relic quests with Endwalker

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]All SE really did this expansion was cut down on the double dipping with the relics. We had to make a choice between using the tomestones we got for doing the content for the relic or for other uses instead of getting an item drop and having the tomestones to buy those other things.

Someone who does Savage raiding wouldn't feel the difference because they probably don't use the tomestones for anything.

Then there's someone like me who doesn't do Savage. Do I use the tomestones to complete the relic stage, do I buy catch up gear for alt jobs I rarely play, do I buy craftings materials, do I buy Rains to upgrade the crafted gear? Using the tomestones on the relic means I now have to do more content if I also need those tomestones for gear (whether crafted or purchased) for alt jobs. That starts feeling grindy indeed.

How many players were panicking because they expected to find cheap crafted gear on the marketboard when a relic patch dropped just to find prices skyrocketing because instead of buying crafting mats with tomestones, players were buying relic upgrades?

It's a good example of Your Mileage May Vary depending on what you include in your game play and what part the tomestones play in the first place.

And that very decision is the major dealbreaker when comedy tomestone already fills the same niche. Why do we have to have tome 2.0. while also losing that optional grind that every prev expac's relic has? If they think that's too grindy, then why not leave it alone (just like if you're not willing to stomach savage/ultimate then just avoid it)? Why does that has to go in order to enable 'lazies' to pick up their shinies?

Last time I remembered from their 4gamer interview only sheds more light to just how increasingly muddled their vision are when it comes to the content's purpose. The moment you try to make all contents applicable to all types of players (no it doesn't have to be, really!) and fundamentally changed it in the name of that, that's when we get something like today's Manderville Relics questline.

[Jojoya]

And that very decision is the major dealbreaker when comedy tomestone already fills the same niche. Why do we have to have tome 2.0. while also losing that optional grind that every prev expac's relic has? If they think that's too grindy, then why not leave it alone (just like if you're not willing to stomach savage/ultimate then just avoid it)? Why does that has to go in order to enable 'lazies' to pick up their shinies?

Last time I remembered from their 4gamer interview only sheds more light to just how increasingly muddled their vision are when it comes to the content's purpose. The moment you try to make all contents applicable to all types of players (no it doesn't have to be, really!) and fundamentally changed it in the name of that, that's when we get something like today's Manderville Relics questline.

Except Comedy doesn't fill the same niche for non-Savage raiders. For most players, it's the best gear they're going to get so it goes to their main job. They're still going to need the Causality to get gear for their other jobs if they don't have or don't want to spend the gil in crafted gear.

Again, your mileage is going to vary depending on how you play the game. SE decides who they want to get the weapons and they've decided that it should be as many as possible instead of just those with excess time on their hands for long grinds.

Should there be some sort of long grind content added each expansion for those with the time on their hands? Yes.

Does it have to be the relic weapons? No.

You may not be enjoying the relic questline this expansion but other players are. If participation makes this the most successful relic series in the game's history to date, SE is not going to ignore that going into Dawntrail even if the vocal few think that it's the wrong choice. It's still a for-profit product. They're going to do what they feel is in the best interest of making profits.

Is their vision muddled? I can't answer that because I don't think they've clearly shared what their current vision for the game is with the player base. The last thing we heard was they want to shed the MMORPG image of the game and make it known as a RPG that can be played solo or with friends.

Most likely they have a clear vision but the player concept of the vision is muddled because they're not sharing the entire picture with us.

The tomestone weapons already existed for said people, just saying “get all the weapons” is not any sort of substitute especially since the underpinning way you accumulate tomestones already isn’t terribly interesting because it’s what we already do anyway

No. Those weapons exist for those who raid. You cannot purchase them same expansion unless you collect multiple Blades from the correct raid end boss in addition to having the correct number of tomestones.

Not everyone raids.

1500 Tomes every four months is not, in any shape, a long grind. Even less so when you can stockpile tomes before the next relic step is available, meaning all you need to do is sit around for Manderville cutscenes then pick up your relic the minute your done watching them.

How are you going to explain that to players who only get to play 4 hours a week at best and don't spend every minute of those 4 hours trying to grind out end game tomestones? Players who may need those tomestones for other things, like meeting ilvl requirements to progress MSQ?

SE has made the decision that those players should have access to the tomestone weapons just as much as those who play 4 hours (or more) daily. They too are paying a $15/mo subscription for the game.

It's very easy to think in terms of "this is easy for me and best for what I want from the game". It's much harder to see things from the perspective of other players who play the game differently than you do.

[Winterfang]

How are you going to explain that to players who only get to play 4 hours a week at best

Duty Roulette Level 90 Dungeons give you 100 tomes upon completion, that's 15 dungeons without doing literally anything else. You're telling me that 15 dungeons (With doing nothing else) is too much for a casual player to do within a 4 month period? Really?

Players who may need those tomestones for other things, like meeting ilvl requirements to progress MSQ?

And they already have plenty, PLENTY, of alternative methods in order to meet the requirements to progress. The msq requirements for the latest Abyssal Fracture trial is 625. The dungeon that leads up to it drops 635 gear. Here's a bonus too, it's the same thing with normal raids to see the story. Anabaseios requires 615 while the dungeon at the time, Aetherfont, dropped 625. You can pass through these supposed ilvl MSQ hoops easily, so much in fact that I don't think jumping through hoops is a justifiable term. It'd be more accurate to say they are nonexistent.
Why are we pretending that this is what's going to prevent someone, if anything, from progressing the MSQ.

SE has made the decision that those players should have access to the tomestone weapons just as much as those who play 4 hours (or more) daily.

Cool, I look forward to getting a shiny ultimate weapon handed to me then. I don't do Ultimates. It's not my cup of tea. But look at all those people who are so deprived of walking around with one. After all, they don't have the time to spend to learning those long complicated fights. Just send it to me in the mouth of my savage mount, please and thank you. After all, this will make participation numbers higher, no?

[Supersnow845]

No. Those weapons exist for those who raid. You cannot purchase them same expansion unless you collect multiple Blades from the correct raid end boss in addition to having the correct number of tomestones.

Not everyone raids.
.

Did you just argue completing the fourth floor normal once per week for a few weeks is a prohibitive challenge because not everyone raids

Tomestone weapons have always been catchup weapons, that’s their entire purpose and why they are 5 levels below the savage weapon despite every other piece of augmented tomestone gear being equivalent to the raid gear so you mix and match, because they are catch up weapons

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

snip

The interview in question: https://www.4gamer.net/games/199/G019924/20230825055/

Jeeqbit has underlined some parts, one of them being the relic weapons in another thread:

[...]On Relics: "In the past, the idea was that it would be okay if you just made one job, and the time calculation for Zodiac Weapon was set at 120 hours, but now that the range and amount of content has expanded, there is less time to devote"

"If you plan to have multiple jobs produce items, it will take a toll on your inventory if you go around collecting special reinforcement items, and it will be difficult to tell how much you have strengthened. Therefore, we made it so that Allagan tomestones"

"young people who play online games these days choose not to play unless it is easily available. However, as I mentioned earlier, if players are enjoying playing multi-jobs these days, I think our game design should be designed to reflect that."

"On the other hand, there are also voices saying that they want enhanced content or exclusive content for weapon production. It's a voice that never existed before... However, in Bozja we created a system where weapons could be strengthened both inside and outside of the content, but in the end it came down to efficiency. For that reason, it is difficult to know what to do with the next series, but the fact is that many players have strengthened the Manderville Weapon this time to the highest level ever."

Again, from ARR to ShB, they stayed consistent with their "grindy, time consuming"-formulae for Relic weapons. This is what I meant by having their vision muddled: relic does not need to appeal to ALL players, and then suddenly they deviate from that.

Tome already filled the niche of not wanting to deal with that but still keep up with the iLv progression. Why do we need another one? (a question not directed at you specifically) So what do we get in return after having this one piece of content ripped off from us? Oh, none? Lmao. So much for being labelled a "theme park MMO".

Using participation as a metric of success can be whacky as we all know it. How are you going to tell that people actually enjoy your content when they set the metric as low as... say, by being online daily without taking account of what you're actually doing to play the game?

By that logic, we should all get relic weapons, necromancer title, a housing plot of our choice, 4th savage floor mount, Isle Perifool/Adenium etc, by simply logging in. Surely that oughta boost the number of engagement in said content, yeah?

[Jojoya]

Tome already filled the niche of not wanting to deal with that but still keep up with the iLv progression. Why do we need another one? (a question not directed at you specifically) So what do we get in return after having this one piece of content ripped off from us? Oh, none? Lmao. So much for being labelled a "theme park MMO".

But relics haven't been taken from you. You're still able to get them.

It's still a theme park MMO. There are still a variety of rides to choose from.

There are still long grinds available to players. The relic weapons going forward will no longer one of them from the look of things.

What you quoted isn't a sign of a muddled vision. It's the sign of a changed vision. Their goals for the past are no longer their goals for the future.

It only seems muddled because the change is not one that you want. Unfortunately for those who preferred the relics to be long grinds, I don't think anyone is going to get SE to reconsider.

It's not like this is unprecedented in the gaming industry. WoW gave up on its own long grinds for legendaries years ago. I don't know if any MMORPG on the market today still has a long grind for fabled weapons anymore. You'd probably have to ask around on a generic gamer's forum for suggestions.

SE doesn't owe you any explanation if you don't have the time to play the content.

I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this, given that if a player only has 4 hours a week to play this game they really wouldn't be interested in any kind of progression system like savage or a relic grind. 4 hours a week doesn't even give you the time to show off your glam.

Nor do they owe you explanation for why relics are no longer a long grind.

You're struggling to understand the logic because you're looking at the weapons differently from how other players view them. They're fancy glamour items, not power progression. Glamours can be as much for personal satisfaction as for showing off to others.

It sounds like you're trying to get some sort of public validation from possessing a relic weapon. The honest truth is few people care what you have these days. They only care about what they have themselves. You can thank the global marketing machine subverting social media for that. What people have has become more important than what people do.

Just wait for them to get tired of this, this is the issue du jour on the forums right now.
A few weeks ago it was Eureka and pretending like the reception to un-nerfed Eureka wasn't overwhelmingly negative.
Then It was "Streamer said game is dying are we in trouble?", now it's relics, just wait for the MMO boomers to watch a new opinion video and find a new fight to yell on the forums about how "It used to be better, now it's so bad and everything is too easy to get, these kids today".
My personal guess is we're going to see "The jobs are too dumbed down, we need more moments of glory" and then it'll be just repeating that Lynx Kameli video ad nauseum and doggpiling/misrepresenting the posts of anyone who disagrees.

I do empathize with the players upset about the change to some degree. Gaming has changed and I can't say all the changes sit well with me. But I'm also a pragmatist. As things around me change, I know I'll have to adapt or move on. Things won't revert just because I want them to.

Empathy stops when people start talking like a game owes them validation. Do things because you find them fun, not because you're seeking admiration from others based on what you have.

Casuality tomes really are just an illusion of choice. The reason being that they are handed out in large quantities by any piece of lv 90 content. There is no actual need to "farm" these tomes if you're doing other activities for other rewards. Most cases when doing so you end up capping those tomes and not noticing until that message starts popping up saying you can't carry any more. This is why a specific type player thinks it's the greatest thing in the world. They're basically being given a reward for doing nothing that used to take a commitment of time and some small amount of effort.

They're not an illusion of choice. It very much depends on what the player normally does with their time. Not everyone at level cap spends all of their time on only roulettes (assuming the roulette will award Causuality) and level 90 content.

I spend about half my game time crafting. That doesn't earn me any Causality. The rest of my time gets split up in various ways, some which will earn Causality and some that won't.

For me, i have to make a choice of whether I will take time away from doing other things to focus on earning Causality. Then I had to decide if I'm going to use the Causality to buy more crafting materials or use them to upgrade a relic. Fortunately I've got plenty of gil so I can buy the materials and use the Causality for the relic.

How do I get the Causality? I do a lot of hunts but there's not always a hunt happening on the same data center and going cross data center for hunts is usually an exercise in futility. Sometimes I poke my head into Variant. If I'm on one of my Dynamis 90s, I keep an eye on the PF for parties doing first time completions for MSQ. Sometimes someone needs a level 90 dungeon or trial, sometimes it's older content that only nets Poetics.

I've got a lot of choices I sift through.

If someone's normal play is to only queue for Roulettes that reward Causality, then you're right. It's more illusion than actual choice because they don't have to change anything unless they want to earn the Causality faster.

[Volgia]

Nor do they owe you explanation for why relics are no longer a long grind.

You're struggling to understand the logic because you're looking at the weapons differently from how other players view them. They're fancy glamour items, not power progression. Glamours can be as much for personal satisfaction as for showing off to others.

It sounds like you're trying to get some sort of public validation from possessing a relic weapon. The honest truth is few people care what you have these days. They only care about what they have themselves. You can thank the global marketing machine subverting social media for that. What people have has become more important than what people do.

I disagree, after all, during base game + 3 expansions they made the relic weapon as a goal for people who enjoy a good grind. If all of the sudden they decide to no longer make that content it does leave people in the air, and for what? For people who barely play the game to begin with? They have a right to ask why they cut this content out of the expansion.

You make it sound like this is just the way things are and we just gotta accept it. What they did was make the relic into the laziest content possible, removing any gameplay elements and instead exchanging it for watching cutscenes.

This idea that glamours and skins are both worthless and wanting to be entitled to them because people barely play confuses me. The journey to get your relic weapon was always the point of the relic, and this time we skipped the journey entirely to the reward.

[Jojoya]

I disagree, after all, during base game + 3 expansions they made the relic weapon as a goal for people who enjoy a good grind. If all of the sudden they decide to no longer make that content it does leave people in the air, and for what? For people who barely play the game to begin with? They have a right to ask why they cut this content out of the expansion.

You make it sound like this is just the way things are and we just gotta accept it. What they did was make the relic into the laziest content possible, removing any gameplay elements and instead exchanging it for watching cutscenes.

This idea that glamours and skins are both worthless and wanting to be entitled to them because people barely play confuses me. The journey to get your relic weapon was always the point of the relic, and this time we skipped the journey entirely to the reward.

The change most likely is because they're trying to change what the game is.

Go back to the Live Letter with the 10 year Roadmap (think it was 68?). They don't want the game to be considered a MMORPG anymore because that has deterred many of the long time Final Fantasy fans from picking the game up. They want the game to be considered a RPG that can be played alone or with friends.

That means updating some of the more popular features to be friendlier to solo players while leaving group play intact. Relics appear to be one of the conversion tests. In the past, there would be no way to get a relic weapon at the intended level solo. By changing what was needed to Causality, which does have a couple of solo sources (Variant, level 90 treasure maps though the player would have to skip a portal if spawned) in addition to all the group content, a solo player could still earn their relic. It would be really slow but it could be done.

As I said, personally I don't agree with all the changes they're making but I'll adapt or move on. The move from MMORPG to RPG that is solo or with friends is one of them. It's a move that has an unpredictable outcome for the sake of people who, as you said, aren't even playing the game. Considering how much effort they've put into making content more solo friendly, it's unlikely they're going to revert the changes. I can waste energy fighting a change I'm not certain will have a neutral or positive effect on the game experience, or I can walk into it with an open mind to see what happens. I don't see this as a battle worth fighting. SE is going to do what they want to do and only reconsider if they start losing more players than they gain.

The value of glamour and other cosmetics is subjective to the individual player. You say that to you, the journey was the point. Would you have gone on that journey without relic weapons being a reward? That's what I did with Castle in the Sky. Expert crafting intrigued me and I wanted a long term goal to work towards. The mount was not my objective and the only time I use it is when I get Aswang as my SB weekly B rank (or when I'm chasing it around the Steppe to map Orghana) because I find it amusing to hunt Aswang while riding Aswang. If it wasn't for that coincidence, I wouldn't use it at all.

If we want a journey to experience, we do have some small ability to create them for ourselves even though this isn't a sandbox. I've got a friend who sets restrictions on himself every time he starts a new character. Maybe he's doing it semi-hardcore (no dying due to his own mistake), maybe he's RP walking everywhere and refusing to use teleports unless unavoidable, maybe he's doing it without any XP buffs outside of those he can't control. He's doing it for the fun of a different journey.

SE gave us all the chance to create our own journeys for this relic series depending on our personal preferences and it seems like almost everyone ignored the opportunity in favor of efficiency or some other excuse. So it goes.

[TomsYoungerBro]

The change most likely is because they're trying to change what the game is.

Go back to the Live Letter with the 10 year Roadmap (think it was 68?). They don't want the game to be considered a MMORPG anymore because that has deterred many of the long time Final Fantasy fans from picking the game up. They want the game to be considered a RPG that can be played alone or with friends.

The relic being a grind makes it an MMO? Did you seriously type this? For FINAL FANTASY of all things that has some considerable grinds within their own single player RPG games?

[Volgia]

Go back to the Live Letter with the 10 year Roadmap (think it was 68?). They don't want the game to be considered a MMORPG anymore because that has deterred many of the long time Final Fantasy fans from picking the game up. They want the game to be considered a RPG that can be played alone or with friends.

The point of the relic is there being a destination, and content being developed for said destination (Eureka, Bozja, or even re-doing old 24 mans and stuff to it), they decided to not develop the content and I am not a RP player to artificially create myself a journey instead of getting what they were supposed to deliver. I think this is even worse for people who have limited time to play.

Changing the game from an MMO to a live service FF single player game is another subject here. I think it takes guts to ask me to play a very mediocre single-player game experience because other FF fans don't like MMOs. They have 14 other games and spin-offs they can play if that were the case. We don't even have the option to experience the story with our friends unless it's done artificially.

To me these changes aren't being made with any kind of player in mind, it's made because they just didn't want to develop the content, or even to cut development cost. This redirection where they say that the community complained so they removed the content is getting old, because I think what most of the community wanted was to fix some jankyness not for the content/core mechanic to disappear.

As for "Adapt or move on", we should first complain to the developers that this isn't the direction we want, and if there's no change in Dawntrail then sure, Adapt or move on. But if you say nothing and keep a defeated stance really, nothing will change.