What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Turtledeluxe]

The simple fact that you're passing it off as 'trolling' says it all, really.

It's confusing to me that you're aware of the shakiness of the time travel in the game. It's hard to keep track between the critics ITT of who realize that and who doesn't. It's not really made especially clear and the way you interpret it can shift your opinion on the story entirely.

The reason I use the word trolling is because it's hard to take anyone seriously who applies genocide to what's happened with Venat, and even Zodiark. On top of that, you're making a moral demand of the player and, in a way, making it personal. It's hard not to be dismissive of it, it's hard not to call it trolling. Hope that make sense. I just don't feel like EW is asking you to answer than moral question in that way-- the story has components already, such as Venat's final words, that communicate to the player what happened with humanity is tragic and all the parties involved feel their own way about it (even Emet) that spans the range of guilt. Whether you're talking about the summoning or the sundering-- boiling it down to genocide is reductive and unhelpful. EW isn't asking that question, you are, to stir up a "bad faith" debate I am uninterested in.

I also don't care if you think Venat is a bad character-- what I have an issue with is thinking Venat working to undo the future in her own time by making the case against Hermes openly and possibly undoing Meteion (I'm not even sure what's being argued here really) just sounds again, not realistic, given that it's an MMO about your player.....I'm not even disagreeing that the story as is doesn't make a *ton* of sense here. But I think it's the result of many different writers trying very hard to loop back the end to ARR with all these other plot threads they created. Because stop and think-- how much longer would we have dwelled on Elpis and Elpis problems if the story became about their timeline.... and the lesson of the game would be that you can just time travel to solve your problems.....huh???

[Theodric]

On top of that, you're making a moral demand of the player and, in a way, making it personal.

Nope, I am doing neither of those things. I am simply critical of the fact that the story is pushing a genocide – feel free to substitute in whatever term you prefer – as necessary and, as a solution to Endsinger, as a good thing. But I am making no demand of anyone, so much as pointing out things for what they are. Even if I did not use the term, and used terms like “mass slaughter and enforced regression through magic”, I am sure you would claim the same thing, because these are still frightful actions. But it’s a massive leap of logic to think I’m making a moral “demand” on you in relation to interpreting a video game story. The term is already used in game to discuss less destructive actions in game. Maybe you want a word with the writers over that?

Whether you're talking about the summoning or the sundering-- boiling it down to genocide is reductive and unhelpful. EW isn't asking that question, you are, to stir up a "bad faith" debate I am uninterested in.

If the story simply presented it as the writers did in the Q&A, as a tragic event which you’re free to come to your conclusions about, I might agree. But it doesn’t. It pushes Venat’s actions as necessary and frames them in an unabashedly positive light, e.g. in the Codex. In other language versions, such as JP, she doesn’t even apologise for her course of action so much as say what’s done is done. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what question Endwalker thinks it’s asking, what matters is what message it is ultimately sending, whether the writers realise this or not. I am well within my rights to point out that the game is deviating from its usual preachy tone in not calling this out for Venat. The writers clearly realised it was an issue enough to bring in the Omega side quests. I just think that it was too little, too late.

Because stop and think-- how much longer would we have dwelled on Elpis and Elpis problems if the story became about their timeline.... and the lesson of the game would be that you can just time travel to solve your problems.....huh???

What you are describing now is down to how the story was ultimately written. There’s many ways to address this, as others brought up, but for me it would be sufficient to do so through including some open criticism of Venat in the MSQ, not propping her up via the codex, more clearly present the Sundering instead of stylised cutscenes with ancient strawmen and shoving the actual aftermath into a crossover for NieR, and leaving the inference of an AU for Panda, much as they did with the short story covering the 8UC, An Unpromised Tomorrow. None of that would require massive effort or rewrites.

and the lesson of the game would be that you can just time travel to solve your problems.....huh???

Is that not exactly what happened during the course of SHB and EW both, though? The Warrior of Light travels back in time to solve a problem that has no answer in the present during Endwalker. The same happens again with Pandaemonium. And that is not to mention the myriads of other plot devices appearing through the course of each expansion, like Cid’s solution to the Void… so I can’t really make much sense of this objection.

[Turtledeluxe]

story is pushing a genocide

You are though, because you and others are very pushy about "call it genocide or nothing at all". Ypu know the reason you're asking for that isn't due to textbook definitions, it's because you want people to conform to your view. As far as the game, it doesn't really paint Venat as a flawless character nor does it suggest the sundering is perfect. Yes the game has general overtones of the guardians of light (which has a positive connotation) and yes traditionally Hydaelyn was viewed as the savior of the star-- the entire point of Shadowbringers and Endwalker was revealing that being a savior is significantly more complicated than that and perhapsyou maybe even get your hands very dirty in the process. Things are not black and white as you are painting them in real life or in the game. Yes the game has other instances where maybe it's asking you to make a moral decision, that is not relevant to the sundering.

I'm fine with JP version with her actions being regarded as necessary. We will never agree on this because you and others have elected the interpretation of the story that imo, makes no sense and doesn't work on any level. Which is to say, you seem to think the trip to Elpis offerred some chance to change the future. I don't agree. I think the Elpis trip resulted in a time convergence where everyone got on the same page in the present time (Venat specifically calls this out). The past timeline still occurred-- past Venat did not have the information and no amount of Elpis visits is going to change that. We also don't agree that she "did nothing to stop it". The walk seq. clearly shows us she made attempts to convince people to not summon, and they ignored her. We literally worked with her to try to apprehend Hermes and it failed.

story was ultimately written.

I've already said the story isn't ideal but I attribute it to being nearly impossible given how big the story is and how many plot threads had to be resolved, how gameplay has to be involved given it's a game, etc. For example we could've discovered the secrets of Elpis through a scroll, no time travel. Makes more sense, takes less effort, solves lots of problems, but it's boring and doesn't serve the gameplay. Yes the story has missed opportunities as with the Nier crossover.

Is that not exactly what happened during the course of SHB and EW both, though?

I'm so glad you asked because yes, to a degree this is true. But to clarify, there's a huge difference between solving some problems (ie now we know how to reach Meteion, now we know what dynamis is , etc ) and being equipped to deal with the future vs knowing the future and just preventing it. What if we apprehended Hermes? What if Venat stopped him? What would that even mean for the present time of the game? It creates all sorts of problems and for what? So you can regard Venat as more logical?