Make healers DPS with four or five healing actions

[Shurrikhan]

Then we run into the people opposed to changing damage profiles saying "Then Jonny Casual couldn't clear 4 mans"

Removing the oGCDs has a roughly equal impact on this. If increasing the damage done to increase the number of GCD heals would be impossible, so too would decreasing the healing available to healers to meet the existing requirements.

Available healing output as compared to requirement is the same thing as requirements as compared to available healing output.

It's not like the only way to increase healing GCDs is to decrease the number and/or power of oGCD heals, since what affects the portion of GCD heals is simply the ratio.

That's why I've typically specified "relative" healing requirements, even.

[MintnHoney]

Final Fantasy XIV is basically already Squeen's answer to WotC's 4th Edition D&D, so I say make everyone responsible for their own healing, and just make "healing jobs" be "jobs that offer more proficiency and capacity for healing actions" while still enabling them the ability to be classes that can be used in a (really slow) action game.
At this point, they may as well go all the way.

Edit:

You know what, you're right. That was me misusing language.
So allow me to correct myself and rephrase it to mean something along the lines of claiming parallels between Final Fantasy XIV and 4th Edition D&D (specifically regarding the latter's issue with homogenization of abilities for balance, of which I can't help but draw said parallel to these days) and, for the sake of everyone, leave it at that. I'll even quote this and put it in there for convenience.

[Shurrikhan]

Final Fantasy XIV is basically already Squeen's answer to WotC's 4th Edition D&D

The suggestion thereafter sounds like it could go fine (I'm all for job identity over mere role templating), but literally what? Unless "an answer" to something exists regardless of that something's presence... how the heck is XIV "an answer" to DnD 4E?

[Banriikku]

DnD 4E is the what now ? I play DnD for 15 years and TTRPG for 21 but this is a hot take here....
None of the TTRPG systems are an answer are even comparable on a detail level. You can be inspired but these systems but that's about it. They are so diffrent in audience, mechanics that anything going deeper than a superficial comparison you will run into serious problems.

But i guess you are going for make healers are some kind of dps now and everybody is responsible for healing themself. Why not, its what i wrote earlier change encounter design or kill the healer role. Two choices, everything else will not solve the problems.

[MintnHoney]

The suggestion thereafter sounds like it could go fine (I'm all for job identity over mere role templating), but literally what? Unless "an answer" to something exists regardless of that something's presence... how the heck is XIV "an answer" to DnD 4E?

You know what, you're right. That was me misusing language.
So allow me to correct myself and rephrase it to mean something along the lines of claiming parallels between Final Fantasy XIV and 4th Edition D&D (specifically regarding the latter's issue with homogenization of abilities for balance, of which I can't help but draw said parallel to these days) and, for the sake of everyone, leave it at that. I'll even quote this and put it in there for convenience.

Although, people did compare 4th edition to an mmo, back in the day. Which I think is odd, but, these days, it's something that's come up in some old recollections.

[Renathras]

To be honest...

Agreed.

Removing the oGCDs has a roughly equal impact on this. If increasing the damage done to increase the number of GCD heals would be impossible, so too would decreasing the healing available to healers to meet the existing requirements.

Not at all, no.

oGCDs being required is difficult for players not good at managing oGCDs. Fights with high movement, fights with a lot of healing at once that GCDs are insufficient to cover, etc.

On the other hand, removing the oGCDs would mean the fight design would change a bit (less movement all the time) and that falling back on GCD spam would be functional (less difficult for newer healers).

Not to mention the reason we cast (few) GCD heals now is BECAUSE oGCD heals are so many and so powerful that we don't have to. The problem is, damage can't be increased much since it's already often nearly player entire health pools (so more doesn't mean using GCD heals, it means using mitigation just to survive), and the rate of damage can't be increased because there are only so many GCD + oGCD weave spaces. We've reached a cap on how damage can work as long as we keep the present oGCD power situation. They only thing they can do is add more damage during the same window, but then they have to add more oGCDs or cut the CDs so they're up more often, both of which end with us having the same problem: Doing the majority of healing with oGCDs weaved in between casts of spamming a single nuke button.

So no, it doesn't actually run into the same problem at all.

But i guess you are going for make healers are some kind of dps now and everybody is responsible for healing themself. Why not, its what i wrote earlier change encounter design or kill the healer role. Two choices, everything else will not solve the problems.

The thing I REALLY hate about that argument is there are already games like that. Most ARPGs, games like Guild Wars 2. If people like that, there are already games doing that for them to play. One reason I could never get into GW2 and quit it was because there was no trinity and I like healing other players. Not just healing myself or doing minor splash healing.

[ty_taurus]

Removing the oGCDs has a roughly equal impact on this. If increasing the damage done to increase the number of GCD heals would be impossible, so too would decreasing the healing available to healers to meet the existing requirements.

Available healing output as compared to requirement is the same thing as requirements as compared to available healing output.

It's not like the only way to increase healing GCDs is to decrease the number and/or power of oGCD heals, since what affects the portion of GCD heals is simply the ratio.

That's why I've typically specified "relative" healing requirements, even.

I don't think that's true. There are many Johnny Casuals out there who don't understand what weaving is, and use OGCDs the same way they use GCDs, so deceasing the OGCD count might not actually have that significant of an effect on them, and in fact, can also be a good thing. Having too many options can often make something very overwhelming, and as anecdotal as this may be, I've seen how a relatively inexperienced healer can feel overwhelmed by the amount of healing resources at their disposal. At a certain point, it becomes harder to recognize what each of your heals actually does and recall which of them you have used, can use, and cannot use at a given moment. The person in question has not played XIV all that consistently, but while playing through the EW MSQ as a Scholar, she would often resort to panicking with Physick, Adloquium, and Succor casts when she had access to resources like Summon Seraph, or even Sacred Soil.

Having a smaller, curated selection of healing resources with more meaningful effects can actually make it easier for Johnny Casual to keep track of their heals and understand them better.

It's a balance that isn't unlike a supply and demand curve, and I'd argue we have too great a supply for the demand.

[Sebazy]

Isn’t the issue for SE not the ideas themselves but the implementation? FFXIV (according to them anyway) has such messed-up code that even when they have an idea, they then come up against the problem of having to actually code/program that idea in a implementable format to the game.

I think the whole PS3 limitations thing is more related to back end stuff, server code, character data storage etc? From the outside looking in they don't seem to have trouble coming up with unique and complex mechanics either for players or monsters. Construct's enumeration, ASTs Macrocosmos etc, Warri... Reaper's conal cleaves etc. The ingredients are there and many of them are pretty new so I can only assume that the combat scripting system they have in place is pretty capable.

oGCDs being required is difficult for players not good at managing oGCDs. Fights with high movement, fights with a lot of healing at once that GCDs are insufficient to cover, etc.

There's also the all too easy to fall into trap of trying to pocket those cooldowns for a 'rainy day' that would invariably never actually come.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think that's true. There are many Johnny Casuals out there who don't understand what weaving is, and use OGCDs the same way they use GCDs, so deceasing the OGCD count might not actually have that significant of an effect on them...

Again, I want fewer oGCDs, simply because I hate seeing keys be comparatively left to rot / increasingly become rarely touched options for redundancy.

It just does not make a difference to the portion of GCD casts necessary or, by extension, whether our downtime kits can be made to feel better without changing or adding onto those actual actions.

It's a balance that isn't unlike a supply and demand curve, and I'd argue we have too great a supply for the demand.

Which can as evenly be solved through more demand (more damage intake)... Again, I'm all for trimming some bloat, but it makes little sense to say that trimmed/nerfed oGCDs (and the reduced skill gap in favor of "Johnny Casual" that would come with that) is the ONLY way that we can improve the context by which to make our downtime tools better fit our portion of downtime.

__________

To recap, I want...

• To adjust fight design (for older fights, where/as pretty formulaically possible or otherwise doable at low cost in dev time) to increase the instances of between-bursts damage, ideally with a degree of randomization that can better keep us on our toes and keep healing feeling urgent instead of just "Ehh, next AoE isn't for another 20s anyways".
• To increase downtime agency through an extra 1-3 non-healing actions per job, though not necessarily at additional button cost, ideally with frequent desired timings but no strong punishments for missing them (absolutely no interruptible combos, in any form, nor similar BS).
• To greatly rein in AoE heals, such as by having at least half of their output be split among all applicable allies affected.
  
  
• To decrease healing output in general, such as by reining back non-Healers' free (especially, on-ally or AoE) healing and removing Healer's +30% damage and healing done Maim and Mend traits, with only their attacks' potencies being increased in compensation (via far more significant upgrades in going from tier 1 to tier 2 spells, etc.) alongside whatever ppm comes from the new actions. The traits' removal would also have the QoL benefit thereby also making 1 potency of healing at a given amount of primary stat the same for a WHM as it is for a PLD as it is for a RDM, etc.
• For Tanks to likewise lose their Tank Mastery bonus and a portion of their massive Defense, Magic Defense, and Vitality advantages on their gear, but to nerf only OHKO tankbusters to match, thereby noticeably increasing tanks' damage taken.
  
  
• To trim some bloat, such by replacing Lucid Dreaming with just straight up more MP generation (ideally, in a way that scales with Spell Speed in addition to [multiplicatively with] Piety) and concentrating our healing abilities kits a little more around versatile and flexibly timed tools, trimming overspecialized or singular/obvious-use-case skills like Liturgy and Panhaima or accessing those functions through other actions (Eukrasia revamped to alter more than just 3 actions).
• To increase the apparent time by which oGCDs can and often should be held for emergencies (now that there is healing intensity to warrant such), such as by increasing random short-telegraph (or near-simultaneous powerful two-target, etc.) damage, giving abilities MP costs (and removing any %MP generation from their use), so that they can better complement an alternative core of healing, rather than needing necessarily to be that core around which all other healing is done just due to those oGCD's far greater efficiency and far lesser flexibility.

[TheDustyOne]

There's also the all too easy to fall into trap of trying to pocket those cooldowns for a 'rainy day' that would invariably never actually come.

I'll save this Elixir for when I REALLY need it.

*Cue credits*

Goshdarnit.