What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Turtledeluxe]

[LIST][*]The mighty Zodiark

Were you even paying attention? His summoning wasn't complete. I've never heard a single person complain about going to the moon or the trial. Not sure what you mean by filler trash aside from your post.

of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair

Umm there's no projecting but everything else you said is right. And?? Is this account your main?

[*]Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Why would anyone believe Venat's story with zero evidence...? You're saying she would have successfully convinced everyone and also found a solution in time? That's incredibly doubtful and unbelievable. Secondly she had no choice but to sunder the world, that was the whole point. Did you fall asleep during the sequence where she explains (as though she did not anticipate) the world she created contained mire and plague? It wasn't some kind of test. She told Zodiark's followers off but that doesn't make it some grand scheme or test. Venat couldn't even imagine what was going to happen...that was the entire point.

How is this thread still ongoing?

Also there are reasons to dislike the story but nothing in this post makes a credible argument other than "I wasn't paying attention" or 'It was filler".

[Theodric]

Venat isn't really making the best of a bad situation, she's the reason the situation escalated in the first place. Hermes may be responsible for Meteion, yet Venat was the one who deliberately stood by with knowledge of the problem and refused to speak up and then when her people sought a credible solution she wiped them out through a deliberate act of genocide, eugenics and racial replacement. Furthermore, she deliberately spared Emet-Selch due to the Ascians playing into her plans - essentially putting all of their actions upon her shoulders as well.

If it were the Sundered who were set to be the target of Venat's actions then she would would be considered an outright villain with an insane, flawed plan. Both the game and many Venat enthusiasts (when they're not resorting to insults or calling for anyone critical of her to be banned, sexually assaulted or killed...) insist that her way was the only way despite there being absolutely no evidence of that being the case. It's a ridiculously convoluted plan that only worked due her eventually opening her mouth and telling the Warrior of Light and the Scions what the root of the problem actually was - something she very easily could have done back in the Unsundered world by not acting as a saboteur.

More than anything, though, the game insisted for over a decade that acts of genocide were never acceptable no matter how complex or sympathetic the reasoning behind them happened to be. For it to suddenly be something worthy of praise on the basis of it indirectly benefiting the 'good guys' simply shows that the game's protagonists don't actually have consistent morals.

At the very least, I think that we should have witnessed something like this from some of the Scions:



We're supposedly going to see the Scions be divided over something tied to Tural during Dawntrail though I doubt it'll be anything nearly as heavy as the Sundering so it'll likely just be performative.

[Atelier-Bagur]

snip

Its most likely because Venat realized the hope and potential of the future of mankind through the experiences the WoL shared with her that pushed her decision to sunder the world.

This is how I saw it at least. Also the sundering was the reason for why the current world exists and Hydaelyn wasnt trying to actively destroy it so of course naturally people would be on her side against the Ascians whom are trying to destroy our world (although Ardbert and his friends were being incredibly stupid for some reason for trusting the Ascians even though it was because of them that almost caused the destruction of their world)

This conflict was also part of the theme in Shadowbringers too with Emet and the Scions fighting for which of them had the right to live.

[Halivel]

Venat isn't really making the best of a bad situation, she's the reason the situation escalated in the first place. Hermes may be responsible for Meteion, yet Venat was the one who deliberately stood by with knowledge of the problem and refused to speak up and then when her people sought a credible solution she wiped them out through a deliberate act of genocide, eugenics and racial replacement. Furthermore, she deliberately spared Emet-Selch due to the Ascians playing into her plans - essentially putting all of their actions upon her shoulders as well.

I'm going to second on this.

And to clarify, I don't even dislike Venat. I think she's an interesting character. But in no way she was in a position where she had no choice.

If I were to tell what course of action would've led to there being no other choice while making her closer to that "100% good" person that she was intended to be: she should've presented Ancients the key information they lacked, they should've tried all their possible options while knowing what they're dealing with and only then, if they still failed to fight off Endsinger, they should've used sundering as a temporary solution. The Convocation knowing why it was needed to be done also would've entirely prevented any need for rejoinings, avoiding billions of unneccessary deaths and probably sparing Ascians' crumbling mental health as well.

Instead Venat decided to play the role of a New World's Mommy. How very noble of her. And then Scions and WoL fall into the trap of Sharlayans' Forum tendency to hide things after promising Emet-Selch to remember them on top of that. If I were to be Emet, I would've punched the entire group in the face once more. I wish my WoL could've done just that narratively, but alas, we aren't given the luxury of free will in the canon.

Narratively we understand that they wouldn't want to change the timeline since we have the entire 13th, 1st and 8 times rejoined Source thing, but from character portrayal perspective this is what could fully redeem Venat as a positive figure in the story. Alas, what done is done.



As for Scions being separated in 7.0, I'm fairly sure it's for some kind of test or contest, so probably no real conflict among them intended.

[Silverquick]

As for Yoshi-P's answers during various Q&A sessions, I do think it's unfortunate that he's telling people to go with their headcanon since the game is so far removed from the idea of giving the player any real agency. I would have loved for the Warrior of Light to want to learn more about the Ancient world and even be saddened and nostalgic towards Amaurot. Instead our character never once really pushes back against Venat to point out how messed up it is to deliberately inflict genocide upon one's own species and then replace them with something altogether different.

It's why I simply laugh whenever the game tries to insist that Venat is a 'good person'. She really isn't. Our character saw Emet-Selch's recreation of the Final Days and then later went back in time - repeatedly - to directly interact with numerous Ancients. All of which proved to be very friendly and even showed kindness towards what they saw as 'Azem's Familiar'. It's pretty weird that the game expects me to be fine with the player character doubling down on the abandonment of the Ancients to a grisly fate knowing that they'll be holding the broken remains of their loved ones."[/I]

That's really the problem.

Because they Retconned the story so bad, they had to change it so far outside of it's intended path it's not even recognizable. You can see it when you go back and play "NEW GAME+".

The Ascians were supposed to be the Voidsent, the ancient ones of the dark world. Kinda like Zero. They were the bad guys you were fighting the whole time and they were seeking to bring the Darkness to the Source. And... as much as I really did like the Shadowbringers story, with the way they wrote Emet-Selk you just couldn't bring yourself to see them as the bad guys anymore, more like people... you and them were just fighting to save your own worlds, which brought you into a collision. No real right or wrong just that one had to win, and one had to lose. Which caused them a little problem...

So they had to invent the Venat storyline to separate the Ascians from being the bad guys, and were s00per secretly a peace loving people who were "misunderstood".

If you look closely... the Endwalker original story is the invented arc... while the post Endwalker story with Golbas is what was the original intended ending with the Ascians and Zodiark.

It's why its almost 2 of the Identical story in both End Walker and Post Endwalker.

The second one is the original it was supposed to be with the Ascians... until they changed course radically.

So yeah Yoshi probably knows that too. And anyone who was here in the beginning of FFXIV can see it plain as day, this was not the original story they were telling.. they Retconned it really bad. So of course it is disappointing to a lot of people.

[Nayukhuut]

I don't recall Ascians having supposed to have been Voidsent. When I played through ARR I just got the impression they were from between the worlds, and that they followed their god. Even in Heavensward you hear that Elidibus saved Unukalhai when the 13th was going under, and that implies that they were there before said Shard was overcome.

I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I played through ARR.

[Vyrerus]

We're supposedly going to see the Scions be divided over something tied to Tural during Dawntrail though I doubt it'll be anything nearly as heavy as the Sundering so it'll likely just be performative.

Thancred: G'raha Tia you are sorely mistaken. Hard shell tacos are superior.
Urianger: Verily, for one who was a city-state leader in his other life, thy knowledge of delectables is a shallow, misshapen inkwell.

G'raha Tia: Well, the Warrior of Light is on the way to back me up in my belief about soft shell being better! *takes a big sloppy bite out of his burrito that's falling apart* Besides, you two are absolutely knackered on the spirits of Tural, so you aren't thinking clearly!

Y'shtola: Oh, please. Have you all forgotten the real reason we're here? Would you really go this far for food? Allying yourselves with the Mamool Ja over tacos!

Alisaie: Oh, if only Alphinaud were here. He'd be the diplomat we need.

*Dawntrail starts for the player*

*warning prompt appears*

Warning Prompt: Choose between soft shell or hard shell tacos. CAUTION: Your choice will decide which group of Scions you adventure with, and this will greatly impact the narrative of Dawntrail!

[Turtledeluxe]

People acting like Venat knew definitively what the sundering would result in are either trolling or didn't understand the scene. Yes she knew she was sundering the world and it would result in the loss of their perfect forms and paradise but it's not like she had a full view of the next 1000 years+ and how every reflection would develop on am anthropolical or political level. She also had no real choice because a. No one would have believed her story and b. Summoning Zodiark is itself purposeful and deliberate genocide. Case closed.

People hand waving it away as some diabolical plan are just mad that EW is the most critically acclaimed expansion of the entire XIV msq AND had the most concurrent players the game will likely ever see.

Also this isn't a Bethesda game. There no chance letting the player decide the narrative beyond your little word bubbles would have ever had the same impact.

[Halivel]

People hand waving it away as some diabolical plan are just mad that EW is the most critically acclaimed expansion of the entire XIV msq AND had the most concurrent players the game will likely ever see.

That's quite the leap.

I love 6.0, it's one of the best stories in the games I've seen along with Shadowbringers. I also don't dislike Venat, as I've stated. But just because I love the story and characters overall doesn't mean I (or anyone else for that matter) won't have questions for some of them.

Venat was one of the most influential and respected members of her society. The idea that if she were to present the information it would've been immediately dissmissed sounds, honestly, utterly ridiculous. If she was as untrustable as some of you claim with the "no one would've believed" argument, how was she even allowed to claim the seat of Azem to begin with?? People holding the seat Azem could've had the reputation of peculiar individuals, but they weren't percieved as idiots or liers.

Also just because WoL wasn't shown talking for 20 hours about history of Etheirys doesn't mean they didn't provide the key information on what the modern world was like and what events led to the problem at hand. Venat wouldn't have known every single detail sure, but portraying her as a poor lamb with no power and with zero options when she practically held the most important cards in her hands... you do you, but to me it sounds like some kind of a poor joke.



And as for the section about main characters having a choice - I don't think there's anyone seriously expecting that SE will suddenly change the way they present narrative. Some of us just wish WoL could've been portrayed to be at least a little bit displeased with the way the events have unfold, that's it.

[Turtledeluxe]

That's quite the leap.

I love 6.0, it's one of the best stories in the games I've seen along with Shadowbringers. I also don't dislike Venat, as I've stated. But just because I love the story and characters overall doesn't mean I (or anyone else for that matter) won't have questions for some of them.

Venat was one of the most influential and respected members of her society. The idea that if she were to present the information it would've been immediately dissmissed sounds, honestly, utterly ridiculous. If she was as untrustable as some of you claim with the "no one would've believed" argument, how was she even allowed to claim the seat of Azem to begin with?? People holding the seat Azem could've had the reputation of peculiar individuals, but they weren't percieved as idiots or liers.

Also just because WoL wasn't shown talking for 20 hours about history of Etheirys doesn't mean they didn't provide the key information on what the modern world was like and what events led to the problem at hand. Venat wouldn't have known every single detail sure, but portraying her as a poor lamb with no power and with zero options when she practically held the most important cards in her hands... you do you, but to me it sounds like some kind of a poor joke.



And as for the section about main characters having a choice - I don't think there's anyone seriously expecting that SE will suddenly change the way they present narrative. Some of us just wish WoL could've been portrayed to be at least a little bit displeased with the way the events have unfold, that's it.

I disagree. What sounds ridiculous is thinking that anyone would have taken her seriously with zero evidence. She doesn't know Meteion's location. She doesn't even know what the final days are. She can't prove Hermes has done anything wrong. Esteemed members of society never just use their word, they back it up with evidence. That's what makes you esteemed in the first place.


As far solving problems on a scale across the reflections...over time Venat can barely seem help us solve our problems in the time our main cast exists or around that time. Every time she does (the flood, Ultima, whatever) it takes a piece of her. Now multiply that over however many years. Regarding the sundering devs have commented on it and besides that it's in her vocal delivery-- venat clearly did not plan the state of humanity, it is what happened. The sundering wasn't a plan it was a gamble.