Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Aravell]

Yes, that would tend to be included in increasing mandatory damage. I did specifically mention changing fight design to force tanks to focus on self-sustain via more incoming damage.

See, if the new tank tools are being pressured and put to the test, I have no issue with it, because that would mean the tank would need occasional spot healing as well. What I have an issue with is the current design where bosses do tankbusters far apart enough that you can either invuln or kitchen sink them, which hardly pressures the tank kit because there's very little else that's threatening the tanks. It also makes healer tools like Aquaveil, Protraction, Exaltation and Taurochole somewhat pointless unless tanks feel some pressure again.

[Absimiliard]

See, if the new tank tools are being pressured and put to the test, I have no issue with it, because that would mean the tank would need occasional spot healing as well. What I have an issue with is the current design where bosses do tankbusters far apart enough that you can either invuln or kitchen sink them, which hardly pressures the tank kit because there's very little else that's threatening the tanks. It also makes healer tools like Aquaveil, Protraction, Exaltation and Taurochole somewhat pointless unless tanks feel some pressure again.

I can't help but get the impression tanks are heavily overestimated. Tanks at endgame feel plenty of pressure. They do at times require healing, whether from a healer or another tank. Shields are also quite important. Putting those nasty dots on some of the tankbusters was one way in which SE sought to force the issue, and it worked for the most - those dots are bad news. I do however agree there needs to be more incoming damage in many cases. Some fights are quite brutal, but others really don't seem to tax my kit at all. The inconsistency is an issue, and I wouldn't mind having more frequent tankbusters. I doubt we'll see auto crits come back, however. Healers absolutely hated the random damage spikes they caused, and I suspect they would become vocally opposed to it again in the event tanks were ever brought back down.

All that aside, there's also the matter of dungeons. Tanks are indisputably quite strong in what is largely irrelevant content. This we know. What people often fail to consider is just how wide the gap between max level dungeons and endgame actually is at this point. The difference is like night and day. If we start adjusting the tanks themselves to make them vulnerable in dungeons, then endgame will just straight delete them. SE could make the enemies in dungeons hit harder, but that'll open a whole new can of worms of people complaining about dungeon difficulty. As if they don't already whine enough about that.

And finally... current tank mentality. A lot of people playing them currently do so in large part because they enjoy being so durable. I've played them pretty much since the beginning, but even I have to admit I've become spoiled by their present state. I definitely wouldn't enjoy it anywhere near as much if I was again beholden to healers in inconsequential content, so I can only imagine how people that have only ever known tanks in their present state would react to it.

[Turtledeluxe]

I think it's important to note that, when DNC was being introduced, many jobs (particularly AST and BRD) lost many buffs and debuffs that created "synergies" because, as YoshiP described, DNC was going to be the job that offered "synergy" as an identity. So, actually, it was DNC who did the "treading" in the first place.

With that in mind, buffing and debuffing are not currently exclusive to DNC and BRD anyway, as most jobs have their own sets of buffs and debuffs. The knee-jerk reaction you had regarding healers possibly getting anything that isn't just more healing spells being an absolute problem just kind of shows how undervalued the actual Healer player is, because the role itself is not allowed to have that variation in their gameplay like every other job in the game simply due to concerns over the healer possibly making a mistake, or the player being initially incapable of healing through those times where one just couldn't (or otherwise chooses not to) avoid damage without some practice.
For any other job, in any other role, having little to do and lacking gameplay variation would be tragic. Mistakes are inevitable, but expected and okay!

Also, regarding job identity: it wouldn't necessarily suffer if "the trinity" suffers or even dies, but, given my prior observation/opinion/statement, I think it'd be fair to say that job identity suffers due to "the trinity." This is especially true when suddenly (as is the case for healers, apparently) trying to strictly adhere to the "roles."

It's not really a knee jerk reaction-- it's a question about whether it continues sending us in the same direction. Your answer here is well everyone has it, healers had it before, and the trinity is to blame because it's impossible to be creative with the role outside dissolving boundaries between classes. Many classes have it but to varying degrees. Some people in the thread are suggesting tying it into the rotation to increase the skill ceiling and that, imo, is what's questionable. That's not how it "used to be". If the requests from healers is to make things how they "used to be" that is different from saying "give us something to do when we aren't healing". I actually didn't say not to do it I said there's a lack of progress in this area because it's tricky. I don't buy the argument that devs cannot be creative with class roles and it necessitates all classes being able to do everything. I'm not even calling for strict role adherence, I'm saying the job design in this game is just muddled.

[Turtledeluxe]

If you want to be a dps, focus on dps.

Let the actions that affect HP values be the healer's concern.

The fact that every job can do every single thing is what got us here in the first place and healers are being actively shelved because of it.

The "trinity" is dead because tanks can heal themselves and the party, the dps can heal themselves and the party as well as mitigate, and healers can bring meager dps and way too much healing that isn't needed.

I'm not really worried about healing and I'm not saying buffs or debuffs aren't allowed, but I'm asking what their implementation would look like because of job identity and how redundant they are in the game. You can complain all you want about my posts, no one going to convince me that slapping Poison or Protect on a WHM is going to absolutely change the game for that class. Not only does it tread on other classes, but it's a boring solution. Also you say we are where we are bc of tank design but I think looking at jobs individually is a micro view- we are where are we because of the engine, the combat loop (overall), and the job design overall. It's a very limited lanscape (in terms of stuff to do) and all jobs are under pressure to be unique and fun in such an environment, but it is shifting them toward homogeneity. It has little to do with the trinity being restrictive, that's just an excuse imo.

[Turtledeluxe]

(alleged)
fights barely have what would be classified as downtime..


Nothing alleged about it sir.

My point is that it's not like there's tons of times healers aren't doing anything-- it's that you're doing things you find boring. Simply isolating time where all you're doing is healing is misleading, because, you're also doing other things. Your post is a whole lot and it's informative, I just think I expressed what I meant poorly.

And the reason it's important to clarify is because what are we actually talking about? Are we talking about giving healers new gameplay loops? What does that mean? Does it give them other DPS options or other buff/debuff options? Or does giving them some additional procs and DoT solve the problem? People are often not very specific imo when it comes to complaining about this and say "give us something to do". And i think what several of the replies are showing is that lots of different people have different perspectives on it and that's kind of my point. As for my snarky DPS comment, it's because I always suspect that that is where the conversation is heading surrounding job changes in the absence of details because the dev team is in a constant loop of buffing damage to appease complaints about a job. When people say there needs to be a "reward" for the high skill ceiling of healer, I secretly wonder if that's code for just making them a DPS powerhouse at high skill levels or what does that mean exactly??? People immediately jump to "you can't tell us what to do" when I'm asking you to say what you actually mean.

Part of me is also just jaded about it because as people say, haven't most of the jobs at this point been steamrolled away from their former selves gameplay wise? I don't see the devs appealing to that kind of request and rather, implementing a lazy solution that makes casual content even less fun. Tha'ts all I'm saying.

[Sebazy]

And the reason it's important to clarify is because what are we actually talking about?

Honestly at this stage I genuinely don't know.

If it was my job I'd be massively stripping back and simplifying the healing oGCD bloat and I'd be looking at ways to make bosses steamroll tanks once again like they used to back in ARR/HW through crits, non telegraphed mini tank busters etcetc. If a WHM feels like Regen is a wasted GCD on a tank against a boss, that boss isn't hitting hard enough, no ifs no buts. Giving us a much more streamlined kit with shorter cooldowns on multifaceted abilities that force us to think about our positioning relative to the group would go a long way towards stopping the brain rot as you sit on your mark with little to no care.

Next up would be working out out a way to make the healers spend their GCDs on alternative roundabout ways to generate damage in a manner that was controllable and tuneable without spiralling out of control. Eg AST spending GCDs on buffs for the party, SCH spending GCDs on debuffs to build up and combo for damage, lets give Sadge ways to spend GCDs on proper resource generating cleaves and cones to again make them think about positioning to get the most out of the combo. The list goes on. These are just rough random ideas clean off the cuff but IMO that's really what SE need the most right now.

When people say there needs to be a "reward" for the high skill ceiling of healer, I secretly wonder if that's code for just making them a DPS powerhouse at high skill levels or what does that mean exactly???

This is a tricky one, DPS is the easiest 'reward' because it's something that always carries value. Does it need to be personal damage though? The thing I loved the most about HW/SB AST was padding my static tryhards to absurd logs. I'm prouder of getting my co-healer world first on Demon Chad than I am any of my own logs and even stuff like using Bole on A12S to enable the OT to skip stance on the last add was a solid dopamine hit. IMHO AST in it's current form just doesn't deliver on that front anymore. It's not satisfying because it doesn't feel like you're achieving anything anymore despite those RSI inducing burst windows.

Going back to the first point, the problem is that I honestly don't even understand what is going on with SE's direction on this. Over the years we've always had a general narrative from them that they don't want us relying on healer damage, they are increasing healing requirements and so forth. Yet we are spending more of our GCDs dealing damage than ever before whilst mainstream content healer checks are borderline non existent.

It's impossible to say if Yoshida isn't taking the current rot seriously, doesn't have enough of an understanding of the game as a whole to course correct it or is being hamstrung by SE's finance division refusing to allow him the budget needed to lure quality developers away from mobile projects and the lucrative bonuses that follow.

[ty_taurus]

Going back to the first point, the problem is that I honestly don't even understand what is going on with SE's direction on this. Over the years we've always had a general narrative from them that they don't want us relying on healer damage, they are increasing healing requirements and so forth. Yet we are spending more of our GCDs dealing damage than ever before whilst mainstream content healer checks are borderline non existent.

It's impossible to say if Yoshida isn't taking the current rot seriously, doesn't have enough of an understanding of the game as a whole to course correct it or is being hamstrung by SE's finance division refusing to allow him the budget needed to lure quality developers away from mobile projects and the lucrative bonuses that follow.

Quite literally every change we have ever seen in any expansion has done nothing but increase the rate at which healers could DPS. Every new cooldown they add, every change they make, all of it has only ever made DPSing as a healer more and more viable and accessible. The countless new healing cooldowns? Not only can they provide healing in-between DPS casts thanks to weaving, but they also reduce the amount of MP healers would spend on healing because we're casting far less healing spells. Removal of Cleric Stance? Now there's no punishment for DPSing--no way to be locked out of your healing. Reducing the cast time of every healer's basic attack spell to 1.5 seconds? Now you can weave a heal between every attack making every GCD a window to heal with OGCDs instead. Making healer DPS required to meet enrage checks? You quite literally made something you claim should be optional into something that is mandatory.

If their goal is truly to make healer DPS something players are not pressured to do, then it baffles me how the actual design of the game has literally done the opposite at every opportunity. Either the team is truly that clueless, or there's a complete disconnect in perhaps what Yoshi-P wants from the role and what the designers are doing, but it just doesn't add up.

[Turtledeluxe]

If it was my job.

It's a complicated situation because while tanks should not be invulnerable, I would it's unclear how squishy they should be. Is that difficulty being created to engage the tank or keep the healer busy? Wouldn't a competent tank not go down so easily anyway? Which would mean healer in thet situation theoretically stays bored.

To compound the problem, in general I think SE has spent a great deal of time making it so players, of any class, don't go down as much as they may have historically. The game seems to be designed around the idea that you are running through cosmetic hallways for the sake of story with some bosses slapped on. Your party isn't supposed to face tons of down time or significant obstacles. This is why I keep saying the healer issue is also a game issue, because combat is so streamlined and so predictable that there isn't much to do for them or any class that hasn't already been done, aside from working harder on the job identity and rotations, which you also commented on.

I think your suggestions regarding kit cleanup and giving more purposeful loops for example are more within the scope of what's still possible to improve the gameplay given that we are constrained (in casual content) by the aformentioned "ez mode" strategy, the question is whether the team is willing to reassess the skills and rotations as would be necessary to make demands of the player.

This is a tricky one, DPS is the easiest 'reward' because it's something that always carries value. Does it need to be personal damage though?

I think DPS is more than constant value but the highest value, because that's what the game design encourages and what dps trackers encourage. I wish the focus was on unique gameplay for every class that's adaptable to average OR expert players, gameplay that challenges and satisfies players as you were when you fulfilled your AST role to help your friend clear. This is why I'm so averse to DPS-ifying everything, not because I don't want fairness amongst players but because I don't think in the long term that makes the game fun. Unless we all want the jobs to be purely defined by their gameplay but otherwise homogenous, which appears to be what some are arguing for.

Going back to the first point, the problem is that I honestly don't even understand what is going on with SE's direction on this.

As I mentioned earlier SE hasn't come outright to say it, but I get the vibe they want the game to be a story based experience (style over substance) outside the minority of static based content. People looking for job depth are expected to play said content (which imo isn't really answer to the problem). Whether that's their philosophy or a matter of resources is unclear.

[Aravell]

I can't help but get the impression tanks are heavily overestimated. Tanks at endgame feel plenty of pressure. They do at times require healing, whether from a healer or another tank. Shields are also quite important. Putting those nasty dots on some of the tankbusters was one way in which SE sought to force the issue, and it worked for the most - those dots are bad news. I do however agree there needs to be more incoming damage in many cases. Some fights are quite brutal, but others really don't seem to tax my kit at all. The inconsistency is an issue, and I wouldn't mind having more frequent tankbusters. I doubt we'll see auto crits come back, however. Healers absolutely hated the random damage spikes they caused, and I suspect they would become vocally opposed to it again in the event tanks were ever brought back down.

All that aside, there's also the matter of dungeons. Tanks are indisputably quite strong in what is largely irrelevant content. This we know. What people often fail to consider is just how wide the gap between max level dungeons and endgame actually is at this point. The difference is like night and day. If we start adjusting the tanks themselves to make them vulnerable in dungeons, then endgame will just straight delete them. SE could make the enemies in dungeons hit harder, but that'll open a whole new can of worms of people complaining about dungeon difficulty. As if they don't already whine enough about that.

And finally... current tank mentality. A lot of people playing them currently do so in large part because they enjoy being so durable. I've played them pretty much since the beginning, but even I have to admit I've become spoiled by their present state. I definitely wouldn't enjoy it anywhere near as much if I was again beholden to healers in inconsequential content, so I can only imagine how people that have only ever known tanks in their present state would react to it.

After our little back and forth, I've gotten a better understanding of your stance now, I find it agreeable, sorry if I came out too aggressive. I do, however, think that tanks should at least have some reliance on the healer, maybe not to the point of becoming a wet sponge again, but somewhere in between.

We can probably both agree though, that WAR is overtuned as it is. Even if they made bosses that stressed every other tank kit, WAR would probably still do better than the others, I think WAR in particular does need to be tuned down a little bit.

[Absimiliard]

We can probably both agree though, that WAR is overtuned as it is. Even if they made bosses that stressed every other tank kit, WAR would probably still do better than the others, I think WAR in particular does need to be tuned down a little bit.

Believe it or not, those tankbuster dots really screw with WAR's kit. Healing is their entire schtick, and having something on you that eats up all of your healing puts you in a pretty bad way. Obviously it's not great for the other tanks either, but definitely feel it definitely has the greatest impact on WAR due to the way it's designed.

Just nerfing the job itself has a high probability of just outright destroying it, since it's so reliant on its own sustain. It would need to be completely redesigned, I think. That being said, making tankbusters more frequent would kinda solve the problem anyway.