The new 24 man alliance raids are a disappointment (mechanic wise)

[CodingSession]

I've always been fascinated by the Twelve since the first day I played this game. Imagine the joy I felt when they announced they're making an Alliance Raid focused on the Twelve. And they didn't disappoint, lore-wise.
Not the gameplay though. It's way too easy for 24-man raid. I think the biggest reason is that the room for error is too generous. You can stand in wrong position while the boss is casting a spell, and still have plenty of time to adjust before the spell goes off. They should make the casting faster, so that mistakes get properly punished.

[fulminating]

Right, but we're talking about 24 mans here, not Savages.

Not only that, vulns punish the healers, not necessarily the DPSers getting them, and Tanks can shrug off half a dozen anyway. And, as I said, it means that damage when you DON'T have a stack is undertuned from what it could be because they don't want 1 vuln stack to equal death to the next raidwide in non-hardcore content.

Damage downs (or even no penalty at all) would make more sense at this point than vuln stacks do for normal content. Or alternatively, Thrice Come Ruin like DR, though that again is more punishing healers than DPS/Tanks.

Twice come ruin? I agree. DRn is basically an alliance raid and has faster casts, twice come ruin, more mechanics, I think more autos but unsure and is altogether a better experience as an alliance raid. Yes, the lost actions aren’t hurting it, but given some of the on-content runs I did, they’re not always a factor.

[ForteNightshade]

Vuln stacks are a better option than damage downs. In well designed fights you can opt for melee uptime to have a bit more enrage buffer and eat a stack with the caveat that you need to mitigate a bit more next raidwide. Damage downs mean you have to solve the mechanic, usually in the intended way and instead lead to enrage being harder to meet if acquired. It provides the players semi meaningful choice instead of railroading into the timetable.

The entire reason they switched to damage downs in Savage is to prevent this. While they claimed it was to not punish healers, the actuality is they didn't like DPS ignoring mechanics for uptime. Ironically, it was when JP copied a NA strat that made them even notice. Apparently, uptime Soccer from E6S picked up a lot of traction with JP. Why do a mechanic when a party wide vuln didn't matter? Lo and behold, damage downs from E9S onward.

[fulminating]

That just makes the combat design team sound incredibly salty where they could have been magnanimous.
Isn’t the whole point of making games to see how people interact with them?

[Payadopa]

That just makes the combat design team sound incredibly salty where they could have been magnanimous.
Isn’t the whole point of making games to see how people interact with them?

They are just re-enforcing how the game is supposed to be played. There is something wrong if you want to stand in damaging stuff. I wish the same could be said for everything below Savage. sigh

[fulminating]

If the global response to a mechanic is “we’ll not bother with this and deal with the established consequences” then the answer isn’t to cut off your nose to spite your face. Surely the devs don’t get bonuses based on how many groups get frustrated with their encounters?

[Saraide]

If the global response to a mechanic is “we’ll not bother with this and deal with the established consequences” then the answer isn’t to cut off your nose to spite your face. Surely the devs don’t get bonuses based on how many groups get frustrated with their encounters?

A mechanic that has literally no downside to just ignoring is not a good mechanic. Their goal is to create good mechanics. They identified the problem as the punishment for failure being nonexistent and went on to fixing that. They decided to not crank up vuln stacks to the degree that it's a guaranteed death for the most part. On some mechanics they did go that route in the last eden tier but the debuff simply wasnt called vuln up, it was called thrice come ruin.

[Supersnow845]

A mechanic that has literally no downside to just ignoring is not a good mechanic. Their goal is to create good mechanics. They identified the problem as the punishment for failure being nonexistent and went on to fixing that. They decided to not crank up vuln stacks to the degree that it's a guaranteed death for the most part. On some mechanics they did go that route in the last eden tier but the debuff simply wasnt called vuln up, it was called thrice come ruin.

Thrice come ruin in eden wasn’t so much so you couldn’t completely ignore the mechanic, it was so you could only solve it in a very specific way that they wanted you to figure out (it’s why Gaia is considered a puzzle boss)

They could have made it so you could “solve” the mechanic differently and just get a damage down on some players for getting hit by 4 things but they wanted you to solve it one very particular way which is why they used thrice come ruin

Regardless that doesn’t really factor into the vuln vs damage down debate because it’s a seperate situation

[Maru_Schwarzlicht]

What happened over the years is that they dumped down mechanics = skill level of the average casual goes down with it over time. What was considered "easy" back then is now hard for the average(Casual) XIV player. You can retrain a MMO community to be better or to be way worse than way before. A dev team of any MMORPGs has the power to do so. Square enix choose to retrain the average casual to not think at ALL so casuals become worse as a outcome. Not sure how casuals can take it when it's in purest form is just an insult that the dev team thinks the casuals can't even do the minimal in a game so they are "forced" to make it even MORE easier. What Square enix should do and the devs is "boiling the frog" tactics by making content tiny by tiny harder and harder of course theres a threshold to the difficulty it should increase so the casuals actually learn the game to some degree and start to get a bit better atleast not the opposite. It's sad honestly but it is what it is now. People enjoy this slop now while they aren't even able to press their 123 combo correctly anymore.

Reminder what i said only applies to the casual content.

[Nestama]

I've always been fascinated by the Twelve since the first day I played this game. Imagine the joy I felt when they announced they're making an Alliance Raid focused on the Twelve. And they didn't disappoint, lore-wise.
Not the gameplay though. It's way too easy for 24-man raid. I think the biggest reason is that the room for error is too generous. You can stand in wrong position while the boss is casting a spell, and still have plenty of time to adjust before the spell goes off. They should make the casting faster, so that mistakes get properly punished.

It's like they give you a pop quiz, but they're nudging you to pick the right answers because they desperately do not want to fail you.
"Try and find the safe spot to my attack!" stands in the unsafe spot, "are you sure? try standing a little more to the left," moves a little to be in a correct spot, but still in danger of Left Bank, "okay well you got that right and since I'm nice I'll ignore this mistake you made."