Make healers DPS with four or five healing actions

[IDontPetLalas]

Make healer DPS ???? Okay.... why do you hate healing so much and still try play healer?
If SE does this they should instead delete holy trinity and stop pretending already.

Also not everything is for everybody. With this in mind please make healers just what they are supposed to be: supporter and healer instead of "i like DPS but want healer ques please make healers DPS, so that i can play DPS with fast ques and F all the healer and supporter players because i dont like it. Please stop having things you like. THX" (a proud memeber of the GCBTW)

Sorry for the salt but hell no to make healers DPS. Whats wrong with a healer or a support role ? We have DPS galore... what do you want with my AST as a DPS??? Thats f-ed up....

Your comment isn't "salt" however perhaps you could phrase it without accusing others: First of all, you accuse players of "hating healing" - based upon no evidence whatsoever. Secondly, you accuse people being motivated solely on queue times. Are there some players that may do this second point- yes- just as some players may queue on tanks. However job design discussions should not revolve around this.

In this game every job will DPS. That doesn't mean however that every job is a DPS. Here's a fact- AST is due for a rework and neither you nor I can stop it. My expectations are low given AST past reworks. Looking at the results of the survey, that is in accordance in fact with the survey results, which definitely reported that additional attack skills (25%) were required by a high amount of respondents as well as changes to the card system (27%), not buff skills. Reading the comments also confirms this from I see.

Even though there is a low number of respondents, it's definitely a pity that this survey wasn't available to Square before any job redesigns.

[Katish]

Make healer DPS ???? Okay.... why do you hate healing so much and still try play healer?
If SE does this they should instead delete holy trinity and stop pretending already.

Also not everything is for everybody. With this in mind please make healers just what they are supposed to be: supporter and healer instead of "i like DPS but want healer ques please make healers DPS, so that i can play DPS with fast ques and F all the healer and supporter players because i dont like it. Please stop having things you like. THX" (a proud memeber of the GCBTW)

Sorry for the salt but hell no to make healers DPS. Whats wrong with a healer or a support role ? We have DPS galore... what do you want with my AST as a DPS??? Thats f-ed up....

My thoughts are as so, the game system has us as supports regardless of a redesign or not. We already are! We need to do damage on certain fights despite what our kit shows or else enrage will be destined. Now, having us as mostly supports does not disregard the trinity nor does it make for bad job design. Now what does, is not using the bloated healing potency/skills in the kit while also not building the other portion of the support kit (dps,buffs,debuffs) then allocating that to other classes that shouldn't be doing that role in general. That's why the argument of wanting healing skills reduced and other unique skills added comes to light ever so often. People love to use the " What you really want is a support argument", but again we already are sweeties and always have been in ffxiv, so not sure what you're arguing against.

Sorry for unintended sass, but that argument is getting stale to me xD. As I keep seeing it used.

[Banriikku]

Ahh semantics lets fight on that hilll...... or rather not. Healers have a job, what is pruposed is simple to make the healers redudant even more now and thats in my humble opinion not good. ALso i do not accuse i simple take the fact make healer like DPS at face value with hyperbole to make my point but also you accuse me of not knowing how FF14 works (all classes DPS in a fight). See, beeing mean to Lala player is like feeding a greemlin. Furthermore this survey is not representative for anything besides a tendency and even that is a lot of guesswork. SE never has and will give us real numbers on anything.

If you want to play DPS with healing options please play not FF14 and make use of the trinity. My point is valid, holy trinity should be embraced not disregarded. But thats my opinion. So if you think thats not the way to go, cool. I would like to hear your why because i am curious. What SE will do? I dont know but the cheapest way would be take away options and buff healing OGCDs beyond all reason. We will loose the card system, i guess and we will get a simple button with a flat buff if at all. I was there when you could make an Monk angry with your cards... very angry ^^ good times.

[ty_taurus]

Ahh semantics lets fight on that hilll...... or rather not. Healers have a job, what is pruposed is simple to make the healers redudant even more now and thats in my humble opinion not good. ALso i do not accuse i simple take the fact make healer like DPS at face value with hyperbole to make my point but also you accuse me of not knowing how FF14 works (all classes DPS in a fight). See, beeing mean to Lala player is like feeding a greemlin. Furthermore this survey is not representative for anything besides a tendency and even that is a lot of guesswork. SE never has and will give us real numbers on anything.

If you want to play DPS with healing options please play not FF14 and make use of the trinity. My point is valid, holy trinity should be embraced not disregarded. But thats my opinion. So if you think thats not the way to go, cool. I would like to hear your why because i am curious. What SE will do? I dont know but the cheapest way would be take away options and buff healing OGCDs beyond all reason. We will loose the card system, i guess and we will get a simple button with a flat buff if at all. I was there when you could make an Monk angry with your cards... very angry ^^ good times.

There are many reasons why it's difficult to resolve this issue by trying to replace DPS spam with more healing instead.

1. There has been no notable change in the frequency of outgoing damage between ARR content and current content, or if anything, damage is sometimes less frequent than in ARR/HW content. Meanwhile, every expansion has not only added more healing resources to the healers, but every new resource added has been DPS neutral--either OGCD and thus weave-able, meaning it gives healers more DPS uptime, or GCDs that also deal the same damage as the healer's basic spell, or refund that damage via the blood lily. Meanwhile every healer attack spell has been streamlined to a 1.5 second cast time, meaning every GCD gives you room to weave any of these resources. We have more DPS uptime than ever before because of all these reasons.

2. Other roles have received increased levels of sustain, particularly Paladin and Warrior who are able to answer to the already diminished instances of necessary healing. As has been discovered, there's enough non-healer sustain that a healerless party was capable of clearing Ultimate. While that is not a normal expected playthrough, it speaks to the above points about how little healing is needed vs how much healing is available to use.

3. Consider that a player has the ability to cast a new spell every 2.5 seconds. If your goal is to rework healers to heal with their GCD more often than they attack with their GCD, how often do you think damage needs to be delivered to the party in order to sway healer gameplay away from DPS and toward healing? Consider points 1 and 2 as well. You would probably need raidwide damage every 3-7 seconds in all forms of content, even dungeons, to demand healers stop attacking and heal given our current resources.

4. FFXIV healing has vastly more accessible forms of AoE healing than WoW does. Generally, party damage can almost always be resolved in 1-2 GCDs ignoring all of the OGCD healing resources at our disposal. WoW does have AoE healing, but far more often has to rely on single target healing because their AoE healing doesn't have the same power and availability as FFXIV AoE heals.

5. If you want to change the the environment for healers to prioritize healing over damage, you're going to need to make some drastic changes to a combination of both healer kits and fight design. This would inevitably require reworking every single fight in the game to ensure the new model for healing encourages healing over DPS, and is also doable with whatever changes the healers receive to their resources, even if that's just rebalancing HP to account for considerably less healer DPS. It should go without saying that this is a truly monolithic task and would be incredibly time consuming and expensive to accomplish.

The truth is that FFXIV has always been an environment that promoted a very offensive healer playstyle--more combat medic if you will. Whether intentional or not, it has also only ever continued to feed into that environment with every expansion. Constantly providing more and more free healing, incredibly powerful AoE healing, faster DPS cast times that enable weaving, and more non-healer sustain than the game has ever had before. All things that lend themselves to maximizing the time healers get to spend DPSing instead of healing.

Third time's the charm.

[Katish]

Ahh semantics lets fight on that hilll...... or rather not. Healers have a job, what is pruposed is simple to make the healers redudant even more now and thats in my humble opinion not good. ALso i do not accuse i simple take the fact make healer like DPS at face value with hyperbole to make my point but also you accuse me of not knowing how FF14 works (all classes DPS in a fight). See, beeing mean to Lala player is like feeding a greemlin. Furthermore this survey is not representative for anything besides a tendency and even that is a lot of guesswork. SE never has and will give us real numbers on anything.

If you want to play DPS with healing options please play not FF14 and make use of the trinity. My point is valid, holy trinity should be embraced not disregarded. But thats my opinion. So if you think thats not the way to go, cool. I would like to hear your why because i am curious. What SE will do? I dont know but the cheapest way would be take away options and buff healing OGCDs beyond all reason. We will loose the card system, i guess and we will get a simple button with a flat buff if at all. I was there when you could make an Monk angry with your cards... very angry ^^ good times.

Same lel. I have been since ps3 support was a thing...that's gone. Healing dpsing was always required but you were required to heal more back in the day, and although that may be,does not disregard the fact you were basically still support cause just because you healed didn't mean you could just sit there. See the argument? I'm not being mean I just hate that particular argument because it doesn't even stand up regardless of what time period we are speaking. FFXIV always had you do damage or contribute to it in some way, not sure when it didn't (because it always did when I started). So in that regard, healers have always been a support...it's just the fact they moved most of their job to other jobs which basically reduced the value of being the "healer". Note healer being support...but what is true, no matter what portion of the job you take into regard the entire job has been diminished... because of the people that wanted to only heal. This sentiment has had the opposite effect on direction because they couldn't keep up the demand for it when they embraced that model a little more, dps skills were removed and the healers that couldn't keep up with the healing inspired them to move the healing skills to other jobs. Which in turn, has left the healer trinity in a poor state.

[Toutatis]

Personally, I’d rather see healers having to use a wider array of healing abilities, have the game throw more punishing debuffs and dots that require actions from the healers, even in casual content. For example, Esuna has very few mandatory uses and some healers have never developed the reflex of using it and just let people die when it’s needed to survive. They also never bother to watch and cleanse dots and debuffs and just ignore them till they expire even when they have long timers.

It shouldn’t be possible to heal a lvl 70 AR or dungeon and keep everyone’s HP topped by pretty much just spamming Medica 2 and putting regen on the main tank, ignoring other spells and single target actions even if they are more efficient. Unless several people start dying instantly to mechanics and have to be rezzed, managing MP is also not really a thing. Edit: atm we have bloated kits and no reason to use several abilities.

I’d also like to see more varied damage application and variations of pacing requiring some management of abilities and spells. When it comes to casual content, newer dungeons and normal raids, if you have a competent group, damage is essentially just an occasional tank buster that comes with an advance visual warning and spaced aoes affecting the group uniformly…zzz.

[Connor]

Not to muddy the waters, but I still think a healer job that predominantly buffs/debuffs through gcds would be super fun. I’d rather have limited healing options but lots of buffs/debuff, than a job that was a powerful healer or had powerful dps skills

[Katish]

Personally, I’d rather see healers having to use a wider array of healing abilities, have the game throw more punishing debuffs and dots that require actions from the healers, even in casual content. For example, Esuna has very few mandatory uses and some healers have never developed the reflex of using it and just let people die when it’s needed to survive. They also never bother to watch and cleanse dots and debuffs and just ignore them till they expire even when they have long timers. It shouldn’t be possible to heal a lvl 70 AR or dungeon and keep everyone’s HP topped by pretty much just spamming Medica 2 and putting regen on the main tank, ignoring other spells and single target actions even if they are more efficient. Unless several people start dying instantly to mechanics and have to be rezzed, managing MP is also not really a thing.

I would like this too minus the new healing abilities (they don't add to anything), the kit is bloated as it is. Regardless that does not seem the direction they are taking and would require the whole game basically be redesigned to support such a system of high healing...which would have the opposite effect on garnering new healers (I personally believe). Also, it would remove the accomplishment of balancing between contributing to the fight and aiding your allies (which seems to be the image for FFXIV on what a healer means to be), which would further make the role stale maybe(?) if they don't entirely embrace no down time that is. I would rather not speak in theories as such a system is not FFXIV's lel.

Not to muddy the waters, but I still think a healer job that predominantly buffs/debuffs through gcds would be super fun. I’d rather have limited healing options but lots of buffs/debuff, than a job that was a powerful healer or had powerful dps skills

I also would like to explore different possibilities and not have much of the same as well...whatever that may be. Personally would have each healer fulfill a different niche the other one can't.

[Banriikku]

Word.
But thats still not my point i want a healer support. BTW.: Why do any of you assume i dont want to DPS? Thats a hot take, i am a Lala i need some damage numbers in my fights even it means freindly fire.

The proposed changes will kill the support role and make healers to DPS without any responsibility.... Thats not changing healers for the better. As if adding DPS buttons would solve AST problems or any healer problem. Thats absolute nonsense.

I did early EW savage and oh boii i had a lot of parses, yeah i am evil... lala you know, with way over 80% Malefic... thats not supporting thats mind numbing hitting one button and giving more buttons means something else has to go - should that be healing and the little buffing we have ?
Healers need more of support aka buffing/debuffing and a reason for these heal-nukes, aka the OGCD collection we have at the moment, to exist. Healing feels bad at the moment. When i hit the button to hardcast it feels not good at all but hitting OGCD and spamming Malefic is not better in any way and giving AST or any healer for that matter, more DPS buttons will not changes these points. It will reinforce them to the point we can give up an the holy trinity. I like the holy trinity so give me more stuff to do in my down time.

But we will get a DPS increase for the healer because people will not understand that when healers are gone everybody has to do this stuff and probably then people will understand. So yeah you folks are probably right in your prediction but my opionion is thats damn boring and i will complain until its happening probably Dawntrail release or the expansion after that. So bear with me and my complaints until then, when the healer job is killed of FF14 ^^.

[Katish]

Word.
But thats still not my point i want a healer support. BTW.: Why do any of you assume i dont want to DPS? Thats a hot take, i am a Lala i need some damage numbers in my fights even it means freindly fire.

The proposed changes will kill the support role and make healers to DPS without any responsibility.... Thats not changing healers for the better. As if adding DPS buttons would solve AST problems or any healer problem. Thats absolute nonsense.

I did early EW savage and oh boii i had a lot of parses, yeah i am evil... lala you know, with way over 80% Malefic... thats not supporting thats mind numbing hitting one button and giving more buttons means something else has to go - should that be healing and the little buffing we have ?
Healers need more of support aka buffing/debuffing and a reason for these heal-nukes, aka the OGCD collection we have at the moment, to exist. Healing feels bad at the moment. When i hit the button to hardcast it feels not good at all but hitting OGCD and spamming Malefic is not better in any way and giving AST or any healer for that matter, more DPS buttons will not changes these points. It will reinforce them to the point we can give up an the holy trinity. I like the holy trinity so give me more stuff to do in my down time.

But we will get a DPS increase for the healer because people will not understand that when healers are gone everybody has to do this stuff and probably then people will understand. So yeah you folks are probably right in your prediction but my opionion is thats damn boring and i will complain until its happening probably Dawntrail release or the expansion after that. So bear with me and my complaints until then, when the healer job is killed of FF14 ^^.

I didn't assume you didn't want DPS skills I was hinting the healers could do good with adding more and that role the healers fulfill isn't one or the other it's both healing and dps. As for killing the support role, I highly doubt it given I haven't said remove damage buffs from the true supports such as dnc and brd, but I do believe that some should be removed from classes that don't need them...(looking at the melee DPS especially lel). More so with mitigation...They could be more inspired by making new things that replace these things they remove...but I'm unsure if they can do that properly given the state of SMN and the fear on the horizon for DRG and AST.

But the point I'm trying to make is you can still support/dps without replacing them. Honkai Star Rail introduced Fu Xuan...she is both a support and can fulfill the want of a healer/tank, she brings critical damage buffs but not enough to replace an entire support on your team as they still fulfill different niches.

As for Dawntrail, I agree in wanting to see the healer role be entirely replaceable, as they add more healing/mit skills to other jobs that don't need them. It will showcase the issues with the job by having other jobs take/reduce usage of their healing kit and finally make them do something about it. Then maybe, they'll also redesign the down time for dps skills by adding new ones ( which they have been adamant against ). Basically looking at the job from every direction rather than just a beginner's perspective.