What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[aveyond-dreams]

A: Souls are also made of aether, and she had used so much aether that even her soul was gone. Zodiark absorbed those who were sacrificed and was still able to maintain their souls within, whereas Hydaelyn did not have the leeway to preserve the souls of the summoners, including that of Venat herself. This difference was because Venat’s group was a very small minority compared to the group that had summoned Zodiark based on the Convocation’s decision. Venat’s soul, which was the last to remain, was used up in the trial against the Warrior of Light and their allies.

So retcon confirmed then.

[Atelier-Bagur]

So retcon confirmed then.

Retcon to what? Please tell

[Theodric]

I said where this has come up before in my first response to you on this.

To be more exact, the Watcher explains he has vague, broken memories from before the Sundering. There are 2 NPCs in Elpis who are all but explicitly revealed to be Ancients whose identities became gods and 1 of them later repeats the same exact line in her godly form. People have been talking about this for a while now.

Yes, and nowhere have you established that this requires soul fragments specifically. Nor does any of this touch on that. In fact, the reasoning the Watcher gives when reflecting on his memories is that it was her being touched by his devotion to their cause that led her to imbue him with such memories which he was otherwise cut off from. See here:



This requires nothing more than the same way Emet’s memories of Hythlodaeus influenced his creation of the shade and certainly does not require soul fragments.

In the same thing you quoted before where it was mentioned the Twelve have fragments.

…yeah, I know that the source says that. I am asking for ones before it which do. The references on soul lore are nice and all, but it’s nothing new, and it says nothing of what would happen in the scenario where a soul is eaten up by a primal, an entirely new scenario to EW. These sources don’t help clarify that at all.

Again, it’s not a great leap of logic to suggest that after summoning there could’ve been pieces of soul left that have a bare trace of identity left in them.

Certainly not implied in Yoshi’s or the Watcher’s own words, nor from any older sources, though, which you were trying to make it seem was the case.

You’re using this as some sort of slam dunk that the writers are wrong but there’s nothing here being contradicted. The Twelve were made before Hydaelyn died and used up all her aether. The souls of the Twelve and the Watcher were not preserved, like you yourself quoted, they were fragments.

Yeah, because it sits oddly both with the short story and with what Yoshi said. Whether you like it or not, I will point out the issue, especially when the Watcher’s own words point to her summoning being the point by which their souls were burned up.

I really don’t get why you’re so obsessed about this

I think that's rather utterly disingenuous framing. I merely pointed out what looks like a contradiction to me. You are the one trying to obsessively claim it isn’t by use of your own interpretations of what must be going on. Really, I think you come across as obsessed with policing opinion about the game’s story as well as this thread.

or treating my way of thinking like a headcanon or a stretch to justify continuity.

Pretty much what it comes across as, in all honesty. I can understand you finding ways to reconcile it as I stated in an earlier post. What is really weird to me is that you feel the need to try put this down to looking for “excuses” to dislike the raid, or that I’d hang that on this single issue. The patch has also only just come out, so naturally it's going to be a subject of discussion.

[Vyrerus]

Finished 24 man.

Went about like I expected.

Llymlaen is HAWT. She was the best part.

Narratively it was a dumpster fire. Everything in it got predicted pretty much to a T, so I'm mildly surprised they didn't "subvert" our expectations, but as has been pointed out, they lied in the interview about Hydaelyn and the souls making her up being completely consumed, so maybe they still feel like they wrote a compelling twist or some shit.

Did not appreciate them having a way to remember the precise lives of her followers, when that was something whole Unsundered folks struggled with.

But more than that, I find the twelve to be morally abhorrent. This whole 24 man they talked about the delight of our faith and unity and their hopes for mankind. And the cast we got, my least favorites of the Scions btw, were hella on board with gods to the point of being like, "UwU, PLZ DON'T GO!!! Mankind finds comfort in each of you uwu"


So when they're revealed to be animated sculptures of Venat's co-conspirators... a literal divisive faction that sought to break their kind's own god... It all just rings hollow. With the icing on the cake being, "We're so glad the world is in your hands now, for you to do with as you please!"

And we still don't have an answer for what Azem was doing while these factions warred over the fate of the star and created another god. But damn does this story basically reek of them basically gloating, "We won." As they use the sundered version of the guy who wouldn't join them in the original world to get their way.

Oh and just one more shit in your face bonus:

There's a shit ton of talk about nature and loving the natural world unspoiled by man etc. etc. And how the world needs to go back to its natural state and man can do without gods now etc.

But they literally return to the star to forever impart their stabilizing force on the way it is now, which according to our narrative, is a highly unnatural state cause by (wo)man.

I actually considered unsubscribing today, and that's something I've never actually felt like doing. But I actually hovered my mouse over the option today.

Like, I want to like this game. I loved this game for quite a long while. But its gameplay quality has been slipping since Stormblood. Its narrative quality has fluctuated, but the pay off has usually always been worth it.

But now? It gives us less, way less than ever before, and has given itself the complete liberty to discard everything that would give its story any impact.

Ascians? Gone.
Garlemald? Bastardized.
Stakes for our heroes and setting? 6 feet under.
Voidsent? Just people who gotta get their world right (by reverting it to how it was before :^)).
Zenos? Maybe dead, but where's the minion?

This should mean new villains, which should be exciting. But we're still walking shoulder to shoulder as the most powerful person in the entire universe standing shoulder to shoulder with the most powerful people (still alive) from Etheirys. Are they just gonna like, steal a page out of FFXI's book again, and have our summertime pirate splash jam interrupted by interdimensional beings more powerful than us or some shit? I mean, that's technically what Odin and Alexander amount to in Treasures of Aht Urhgan. But if that's all there is, I might as well crawl back into XI and forget XIV entirely.

[aveyond-dreams]

Ascians? Gone.
Garlemald? Bastardized.
Stakes for our heroes and setting? 6 feet under.
Voidsent? Just people who gotta get their world right.

This should mean new villains, which should be exciting. But we're still walking shoulder to shoulder as the most powerful person in the entire universe standing shoulder to shoulder with the most powerful people (still alive) from Etheirys. Are they just gonna like, steal a page out of FFXI's book again, and have our summertime pirate splash jam interrupted by interdimensional beings more powerful than us or something? I mean, that's technically what Odin and Alexander amount to in Treasures of Aht Urhgan. But if that's all there is, I might as well crawl back into XI and forget XIV entirely.

What having everything interesting destroyed in the game feels like after we dared to like the wrong things instead of the Scions/goofiness of the recent writing:

[Lunaxia]

I wouldnt call Shb's story complex.

Gratified to finally see someone else reference Symphonia when it's all I could think about during the final part of Endwalker, lol. God, I loved that game back in the day. (And did people actually like Sorrow of Werlyt overall? I thought it was awful.)

And I think it's fair to call ShB complex relative to the rest of the series, and at least insofar as the average JRPG. Did the ending portion do a lot of the hefty lifting for the praise it wound up getting? Absolutely. Did some parts drag? (Vague screams about trolleys in the distance.) But there was a lot ShB did really well. It really went to town pulling apart each of its main characters and examining their motives and points of view on a much deeper level, did a great job dismantling our previously fairly black and white view of the world into far more nuanced and realistic shades of grey, and it wasn't afraid to look long and hard at, and even criticise, the typically ignored issue of protagonist-centered morality - and well! It made you question not only what we had always come to take as gospel until that point in terms of what it was to be the WoL and Hydaelyn's favourite, but how ultimately fate and circumstances beyond our control could shape what we do and what we become regardless of our good intentions, and just what little separates from becoming like our enemy - and relating to that, of course, it gave us one of the most fascinating and layered villains in the franchise. There was a lot going on, more so sometimes than I think even fans give credit for. Maybe you think it didn't do it so well, maybe you found it dull or it just didn't land, but I think you have to at least give some credit to how deep the writers were willing to go that time around.

Yes, and nowhere have you established that this requires soul fragments specifically. Nor does any of this touch on that. In fact, the reasoning the Watcher gives when reflecting on his memories is that it was her being touched by his devotion to their cause that led her to imbue him with such memories which he was otherwise cut off from. See here:

Ah, I was trying to find this, lol! I was similarly perplexed thinking "wait, haven't we already been told the Watcher is basically a creation of Hydaelyn's based on her memory?" and trying to locate where I'd read it.

And to be sure it's not the biggest retcon in the world, but I don't see why it's a problem to take issue with it going from "an absolute sacrifice where souls would not even remain" to enough fragments remaining that they could serve as cores to power their personas and have a meaningful return to the lifestream. The circumstances surrounding Hydaelyn's creation and victory were already so blandly convenient and vague, it gave some sense of cost to the whole thing that helped make sense of it, as well as lending Venat and her faction some (in my opinion) much needed sympathy. FFXIV as we know it is built on retcons, but this is a pretty lazy one that contradicts lore established barely five minutes earlier, and not even favorably. Let it never be said EW that isn't reliable in its habits, I guess.

[Reap00]

One of you folks should probably start a how bout that terrible Dawntrail story as soon as possible. You want to make sure your name is in lights as long as possible as its obviously very important. I also want to make sure I have more to read when I am in the bathroom during the next expansion. Thanks!

[EgilTheStressedMage]

Zenos? Maybe dead, but where's the minion?

Probably in the cash shop. Look up the definition of wasted potential and you'll see him.

[Theodric]

Ah, I was trying to find this, lol! I was similarly perplexed thinking "wait, haven't we already been told the Watcher is basically a creation of Hydaelyn's based on her memory?" and trying to locate where I'd read it.

And to be sure it's not the biggest retcon in the world, but I don't see why it's a problem to take issue with it going from "an absolute sacrifice where souls would not even remain" to enough fragments remaining that they could serve as cores to power their personas and have a meaningful return to the lifestream. The circumstances surrounding Hydaelyn's creation and victory were already so blandly convenient and vague, it gave some sense of cost to the whole thing that helped make sense of it, as well as lending Venat and her faction some (in my opinion) much needed sympathy. FFXIV as we know it is built on retcons, but this is a pretty lazy one that contradicts lore established barely five minutes earlier, and not even favorably. Let it never be said EW that isn't reliable in its habits, I guess.

I'm always happy to help! I suppose it comes with the territory but given the direction of any and all lore discussions involving both Shadowbringers and Endwalker I decided it was for the best if I made certain to save even the fairly niche sources to both spread awareness of nuggets of information hidden away in obscure interviews and keep track of everything revealed so far.

My thoughts echo your own in relation to how it fit with Venat's story. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect there to be a dire cost to...completely eliminating the original inhabitants of a planet through an act of genocide and replacing them with something altogether different. By eroding away what few consequences came of that for the protagonists and their allies, it just seems rather tone deaf and cheap. Particularly in the aftermath of awkwardly trying to justify everything that happened as a grim necessity.

I've said many times before that I quite enjoy darker, more bittersweet stories. Yet that's only applicable when there's an attempt at striking a healthy balance - consistently changing the rules to ensure that the 'chosen few' get to walk away with mostly everything that they could possibly desire wears rather thin when the premise of the expansion is supposed to revolve around suffering being an unfortunate necessity of life.

One of you folks should probably start a how bout that terrible Dawntrail story as soon as possible. You want to make sure your name is in lights as long as possible as its obviously very important. I also want to make sure I have more to read when I am in the bathroom during the next expansion. Thanks!

I don't think many here are particularly interested in learning that you think about us during visits to the bathroom, Reap. Each to their own, though!

[Lunaxia]

snip

There's also a line or two on the moon where he talks about being a creation of hers entrusted with another's memory as well. And I also happened to stumble across this while searching for it:

The Watcher (on answering "If keeping Zodiark imprisoned is the right thing to do, I will aid you" in response to being told to dispel the souls emerging from Zodiark): What is right and good? Ask a thousand souls and receive a thousand answers. I offer none. I am the watcher and the gaoler. I am not the judge.

It means absolutely nothing now, of course, but considering who is saying it and what it refers to, I found it an interesting piece of dialogue to give him nonetheless. A shame it never actually went anywhere.