I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[Shurrikhan]

So, a comparison:

• RPR: Enshroud, consume 4 stacks, Communio
• RPR: Enshroud, consume 4 stacks, get carried away and consume the 5th stack,
• SMN: Summon Titan, consume 4 stacks,

Ifrit's dash and Garuda's puddle are unique action within SMN's kit, but the rest of the attuned gemshine actions lack the oomph of a finisher, and fail to build up to anything or go anywhere interesting -- just like Ruin III.

And while they might be considered "the destination," much like one might consider Fire IV "the destination" for BLM, SMN is severely lacking in all those things that make getting to the destination and staying there interesting.

Oddly enough, though I'm huge fan of nuance and highly context-impacted calculations that may invert a typically-held guideline, I never really feel all that thrilled by fail states like these, especially when the player impact of the mechanics seems at odds with the job theme in that state. Being overwhelmed by one's Voidsent = be careful not to overspend? ???

In a game with greater technical/coding competence, rather than having Communio spend stacks and copying old Req-Confiteor's fail condition (I consider PLD to seem far more deliberate/methodical than a Voidscent-enraptured scythe-man on a killing spree), I'd prefer it if each spender raises the damage of the next Communio but that bonus fades, by percent, over time, so that instead of that mechanic feeling "measured" and strictly timed, it instead feels more opportunistic and capitalizing... more predatory/cruel... in that it may want to pop it slightly early after a string of crits, or gamble that the string will continue (for even bigger blasts).

Agreed, though, that SMN lacks that sense of pivotal moments or "destinations" or the like. I feel like part of that, though, is just inherent in the summons' being phase-starters instead of feeling at all like rewards or capitalizations.


:: Food for thought: What probably kills small, highly-nuanced optimizations the most... is just the super obvious/unchanging win/fail conditions that tend to heavily punish "mistakes" more so than "errors". A lot of the times a low floor and high ceiling aren't just paired design goals, but a high ceiling almost seems to inadvertently cause things that in turn cause an accessible floor.

[Aravell]

I think it's good as a DPS, since there are other Jobs that don't work that way. Consider the alternative - if every job was like SMN. That would be bad as well. For my part, I think diversity of options is key. Any heavy limits on that, I consider negative. (I also contest RPR is "a very simple Job" but that's neither here nor there and I haven't played with it enough yet; about to, though, since it's the only Job I have left to get the story from so leveling it to at least 80 because I want to do all its story quests...)

I never said there should not be diversity of options and that every job should be BLM-level, I doubt anyone else says that either. Where you think SMN is a good baseline job for ease of access into the role, I think it's way too low (before anyone tries to hit me with a gotcha, yes, I also hate DNC and MCH for their simplicity).

I want RDM/RPR to be the baseline for the DPS role, those are two very easy to understand jobs with a very simple baseline rotation consideration. RDM baseline considerations is just don't overcap mana, keep everything on cd, don't have too big of a split in white/black mana. RPR baseline considerations is just don't overcap soul/shroud gauge, keep stuff on cd, don't drop Death's Design. Very simple jobs overall, even for people very new to the role, except they have their own additional considerations if one intends to optimise. Anything at the SMN level is more akin to what you'd expect from a tank or healer job because of how barebones it is.

You also have to understand that SMN itself is heavily limiting any sort of additional growth that people want out of the job, telling people who want to grow better at SMN "Well, just go play BLM then." isn't going to make them happy. Adding more considerations to SMN to allow people some room for growth would also would not alienate anyone since the baseline of this job is already so simple. If you're playing PLD and you see another PLD doing the optional rotation where they fit an extra Holy Spirit under FoF, would you consider that unfair? If you don't consider that unfair, then you're not really opposing what people are asking, which is optional ways to grow better at the job they main.

[Sebazy]

why does everything have to revolve around your experience?
as if other people's experience is worthless if you yourself has not seen/heard/experienced the same.

Because I think you're making up unrealistic scenarios to try and push your point.

If it was a valid issue, it would be easy enough to find cases of this happening in huge mega threads such as tales from DF.

Yet it isn't. Why is that.

Not everyone did Titan Hardmode and got Relics when that was current content. Not to mention the game itself was far more lenient. Titan Hard back then, if it was released today, would be considered a braindead Trial by modern standards.

I'm not sure which point I tried to suggest that *Everyone* got their Titan HM clear in so how about you go derail someone else's point? Take that word out of your mouth and sit back down son.

Now we've got the required 'Renathras is doing a Ren moment' out of the way: On my server at least, I'd wager that a solid majority who put some effort in managed it. Why can I say this with confidence?

Because on Ragnarok we had a huge series of Linkshells called Attack on Titan. Towards the end it ran to something like 5 or 6 filled out shells and we were actively having to ask people to leave if they had all the relics they wanted. It was vast and it would have multiple teams of helpers farming for other peoples Relics all night, every night. It was well organised and very effective despite mostly being filled with average joes rather than stuffed full of the then relatively small hardcore coil community.

You mean like Titan Unreal was considered braindead too? Lenient like getting knocked off the edge and not being able to be raised in many a fight back then?

I mean sure, Titan HM would be easier now, with todays improved server latency, with todays oGCD filled burst healing tools, with todays movement friendly jobs, with todays plugins and timelines, with todays nigh bottomless MP and with todays Youtube guides. But trying to downplay it's challenge back in the day when we had none of that shows your ignorance and lack of understanding for what it is.

Maybe you need to go watch some more Mr Happy guides to fill you in.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Normal content is created for exactly that reason, it's made to be cleared by most players.[...]

Precisely. They're already clearable even when people are playing suboptimal/incorrectly, so why care?

[...]It's the same with job difficuilty.. you want easy/middle/hard and ffxiv do have this - with SMN being the easiest among them.
easy jobs --> it's an entry point for less experienced players into the game..

Gonna have to disagree with that.

SMN in its current iteration is a bane to the entire caster role. Not to mention that it has been iterated that their issue isn't the entry point---It's because they have nowhere else to go after reaching that entry point.

[Supersnow845]

Let’s be honest here where can they actually go with SMN as it is

Say (ignoring the problems this would introduce) they did leviathan, shiva and Ramuh at level 100, what the hell would they do for level 110, there is already no room in the rotation, no flexibility and no growth, at most they could maybe do something like replacing the one button spam of the Demi’s with a rotation but at that point why didn’t they do that for EW

The job isn’t a solid foundation, it’s a dead end

[Aravell]

Let’s be honest here where can they actually go with SMN as it is

Say (ignoring the problems this would introduce) they did leviathan, shiva and Ramuh at level 100, what the hell would they do for level 110, there is already no room in the rotation, no flexibility and no growth, at most they could maybe do something like replacing the one button spam of the Demi’s with a rotation but at that point why didn’t they do that for EW

The job isn’t a solid foundation, it’s a dead end

I could honestly see them ripping Phoenix out of the rotation and making it a standalone summon for Everlasting Flight and Rekindle, then they replace Phoenix with another flashy summon and call it a job well done.

[Supersnow845]

I could honestly see them ripping Phoenix out of the rotation and making it a standalone summon for Everlasting Flight and Rekindle, then they replace Phoenix with another flashy summon and call it a job well done.

That’s such a stupid and nonsensical idea I’m now almost convinced that’s exactly what they will do

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Mother Hydaelyn, don’t give them ideas lol.

[Bonoki]

The job isn’t a solid foundation, it’s a dead end

I feel this way about a lot of jobs. Normally I am excited about what new actions an expansion will bring but lately I've been more terrified about which skills are getting removed more.

[Morphiana]

Look, you can either have a limited number of in depth classes with balance or a ton of more generic classes with balance. You cannot have both, WoW has taught us that, the work load becomes insane after awhile.

The more classes and abilities you add the more you have to account for. 1 class is not just 1 more thing to worry about, a new class comes with a ton of abilities you'll have to worry about and how they interact with everything from other jobs to the enemies in the game. That's just PvE, it doesn't even include PvP balancing. The more unique you make it, the harder it will be to tune. The more time they spend tuning class balance the less content you'll get so they make the classes easier to tune thus more generic.

If you want more depth to your classes and more strategy behind the game play then it's best to start asking they slow down on new class releases. Otherwise, it'll become more generic with each subsequent class they put out.