I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Supersnow845]

I guess this comes to the point that when considering the number of buttons healers have are people genuinely counting rescue and repose, nobody uses repose outside of field content and rescue is a meme button

For that matter does anyone count cure 1 and medica here either, whether controller or PC you are going to throw those on a seperate hotbar titled “sub level 50 content hotbar” and otherwise ignore them

So WHM has 29 unique actions in a practical sense (all of its main actions minus cure 1 and medica but adding lucid dreaming esuna and surecast), of those the only actions I could truly see as redundant are tetra which has just been outclassed in usefulness ever since misery became a gain and lily’s became 20 seconds and cure 2 existing as an independent button when you have a lily up

POM, assize and lucid all have different CD’s even if you fire them all off CD, there isn’t really a functional way to combine them in a realistic sense unless you maybe put lucid’s mana regen on assize or deleted lucid and baked it’s regen into natural regen further removing the point of even having mana as a stat but that would still be kinda messy, I can see bension feeling useless after aquaveil but it is fair to say aquaveil is too strong to be put on bension CD’s but bension is too weak to be put on aquaveils CD so combining them is still messy

So if we put bension into aquaveil, cure 2 became solace when a lily was up and tetra got deleted it could bring useful actions down to 26, I mean it’s not terrible but it just kinda feels…….not needed so to speak, like I’m reaching for a reason to delete tetra and you can argue bension vs aquaveils merits depending on the situation

[Shurrikhan]

The Lily spells have specific use cases, and there are times you might want to save a Lily.

That allows for the saving of a Lily. Unless you cancel the casted heal via movement to instantly auto-complete it instead (e.g., but just hitting Cure II while still moving), it doesn't consume the Lily. Control is fully retained.

So WHM has 29 unique actions in a practical sense (all of its main actions minus cure 1 and medica but adding lucid dreaming esuna and surecast), of those the only actions I could truly see as redundant are tetra which has just been outclassed in usefulness ever since misery became a gain and lily’s became 20 seconds and cure 2 existing as an independent button when you have a lily up

POM, assize and lucid all have different CD’s even if you fire them all off CD, there isn’t really a functional way to combine them in a realistic sense unless you maybe put lucid’s mana regen on assize or deleted lucid and baked it’s regen into natural regen further removing the point of even having mana as a stat but that would still be kinda messy, I can see bension feeling useless after aquaveil but it is fair to say aquaveil is too strong to be put on bension CD’s but bension is too weak to be put on aquaveils CD so combining them is still messy

None of those would, imo, want consolidation, save Cure and Lucid. It's just Cure, Rapture and Solace (only in that you can provide precisely equal amounts of control without spending a single button on them), potentially Holy/Glare (if either were adjusted to allow for the other's utility/ST efficiency), maybe Misery (only if you had another way to bank and burst damage potential), maybe Raise, and most of the Role Actions. Tetra is not redundant; it stacks. Aquaveil and Benison often have different preferred uses and timings even if they were to share recast timers. Etc., etc.

Medica II just needs its relative MP efficiency toned way down to make Medica non-redundant and a similar common sense pass over other spells' MP costs would likewise do WHM some good.

Lucid Dreaming would not be consolidated, but simply made passive. We get 40% MP per minute passively, and like 37.5% per minute from Lucid Dreaming. Just double the in-combat MP regen and axe Lucid.

Tl;dr: If there's a reason for the tool to stand apart and it just lacks the relative tuning to do so at present, you just fix its relative tuning (by adjusting it and/or what makes it redundant). If the agency/choice provided by the button could be identically or better provided without that button, though... lose the button while keeping the agency/choice by other, cost-less means. And if the capacity the button provides literally reduces the kit's available nuance or depth, then axe its button and don't provide it through button-less means either.

[Renathras]

I guess this comes to the point that when considering the number of buttons healers have are people genuinely counting rescue and repose, nobody uses repose outside of field content and rescue is a meme button

For that does anyone count cure 1 and medica here either, whether controller or PC you are going to throw those on a seperate hotbar titled “sub level 50 content hotbar” and otherwise ignore them

So WHM has 29 unique actions in a practical sense...

Please don't.

Why not? Well...

...because we could make this argument about LITERALLY EVERY JOB IN THE GAME, and would have to do that before we could compare. "Oh, WHM has only 29", yeah, but now we have to adjust all the other Jobs to calculate the new average and modes. How often do BLM, RDM, and SMN use Sleep? Lucid has the same argument for them as it does the Healers. When was the last time you saw a PLD using Shield Bash and it not being a meme? Does MCH really need Reassemble when you could just baseline buff Drill and Chainsaw to automatically have that? SGE has the same "nobody uses" buttons that WHM does other than its Cure 1 and Medica 1 buttons getting double duty as Adlo and Succor.

Once you open that Pandora's Box, we have to go through every single Job making the same arguments.

Moreover, 29 is still functionally identical to 30 under the "3 tens is a lot of buttons" argument. So this changes nothing and is really not a good argument. Someone made it in that thread and a I pointed this out there, too.

.

Some of this DOES come down to what you consider bloat, though. For example, Lucid.

The Devs could just increase healer (and caster, why not) baseline MP generation to equal using Lucid OR reduce spell MP costs to equal it. "But you can press Lucid if you were just Raised"; sure, that could be an argument...if you weren't more or less using it on CD already, in which case that's only an argument if you happened to die and be raised just before it comes off CD. If you used it and then died and were raised? Now it's useless. Note I didn't call out Thin Air, as Thin Air (partly due to having 2 charges) IS something you can hold on to for death recovery needs, which Lucid generally is not. Lucid is more akin to Aetherflow; something you don't generally hold on to.

There are always arguments to be made as to what is and isn't useful. But that wasn't the question you asked.

You asked:

Pls explain how WHM suffers from button bloat

And I think between me and Shurrikhan, you have the answer to that question. Fair?

.

EDIT:

That allows for the saving of a Lily. Unless you cancel the casted heal via movement to instantly auto-complete it instead (e.g., but just hitting Cure II while still moving), it doesn't consume the Lily. Control is fully retained.

The issue is if someone has to move, accidentally moves, or uses movement (instead of the jump button; controller player here) to chancel casts.

In those cases, you've taken control away because they might not have WANTED to get the Cure 2 cast off IF it was going to consume a Lily in those cases. On the other hand, having a Recitation-like button retains control, saves one button over what we have now, and has the same effect just more in the player's control. It also keeps the Misery interaction, which the movement thing doesn't as well, imo. Under your system, you have to move-cancel casts intentionally to prevent loss of Misery casts, which just seems...clunky to me, somehow.

(I get some people might feel the same about a Recitation thing, but I feel it retains more of the current system while opening it up to more options, granting/retaining more control, and probably being more intuitive.)

It's one thing I dislike about the "Cure 2/Medica consume a Lily when Lily is up, function normally otherwise" which I dislike because it removes that layer of control. A Recitation button would not, and could either be an oGCD (every WHM spell now other than Holy has a weave window) or a Eukrasia-like thing (1 sec GCD into a 1.5 sec GCD), but either one would be more interesting than what we have now and actually be one button less bloaty.
...but...different topic for another time?

[Shurrikhan]

@Renathras.
Ultimately the best solution there is a [moving] conditional available to macros and to un-neuter macros, but in either case, it was just a spitball means of pointing out how you could retain full control over the timing of those Lily heals without having to spend even a single button on them. Yes, it could "punish" unintended movement-based cancels in that spitball form... but no more so than too-early movement or hitting the wrong buttons would be already. Between using a Lily earlier than intended because you messed up your controls (which you could as easily do by hitting Solace instead of your intended button already) and altogether wasting a GCD... the latter is usually the worse.

On the whole, you've already heard my spiel: have healing GCDs grant gauge that can be used to rush cooldowns, with a couple new non-curative cooldowns being added to WHM. No Misery, just indirect potency recovery, perhaps with returns that increasingly diminish over use and then recover over time. Let summoning a Tornado to wreck and CC enemies while hastening nearby allies' movement speeds or a Quake to again damage and CC while providing cover to allies, at greater frequency as healing intensity increases, be sufficient.

I don’t really see the validity in the idea that people are unhappy with how few damage options healers have then go “glare with 50% falloff and delete holy” is a good thing

No one has been asking for that. Thus far the requests have only been to give Holy a place also in ST rotation (and perhaps Glare, too, a place in AoE rotation, even if indirectly / only a bit more in that Dia is "included" in AoE during the dungeon gather), thereby increasing the number of actions available both in ST and AoE... but just without adding needlessly to button count.

It simply comes down to...

• "If spending a button on X offers zero additional complexity, QoL, or control... why spend a button on it?", and
  
  
• "If you already have dead buttons that can be easily repurposed to the effect desired, why instead leave those buttons dead and add a new one atop them?"

That's it. That's the extent of the logic being questioned here.